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  1. #611
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    The Ni function produces, of itself, something internal and perceptible, such as a feeling or an image. Although the source is internal, its source is often externalized.

    If Bagans was more of a mystic and less of a pseudo-scientist, he might say that the source of the cloud formation was an air elemental rather than intellectualizing it as merely a meteorological phenomenon. It is that, but it could also be something else, as his own feelings were trying to tell him.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."

  2. #612
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Actual picture:

    There's a name for this kind of cognition, but I forget it. It's where you can look at just about anything random, and see patterns such as faces or animals or anything else recognizable, even though you know it's just clouds, or a curtain with a flower pattern on it.

    I don't think it's an example of Ni, per se, because it happens for everyone. I will say, however, that it's a good example of "what Ni feels like" for those who don't have it as a dom/aux function. Ni will "just see" patterns that no one else sees. The main difference with the face in the clouds example is that there is no face in the clouds - it just looks like it.

    For Ni, Ni will see the pattern, and the pattern indicates something real. E.g., it's more like seeing a funnel cloud and concluding that there's a tornado - except no one else can see the funnel cloud and they think you're crazy until the tornado hits, and then they say you were just "lucky" to be right about the tornado. They think there is no real way we could know that there is a tornado coming, because they cannot see the funnel clouds that the tornadoes make.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #613
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There's a name for this kind of cognition, but I forget it. It's where you can look at just about anything random, and see patterns such as faces or animals or anything else recognizable, even though you know it's just clouds, or a curtain with a flower pattern on it.

    I don't think it's an example of Ni, per se, because it happens for everyone. I will say, however, that it's a good example of "what Ni feels like" for those who don't have it as a dom/aux function. Ni will "just see" patterns that no one else sees. The main difference with the face in the clouds example is that there is no face in the clouds - it just looks like it.

    For Ni, Ni will see the pattern, and the pattern indicates something real. E.g., it's more like seeing a funnel cloud and concluding that there's a tornado - except no one else can see the funnel cloud and they think you're crazy until the tornado hits, and then they say you were just "lucky" to be right about the tornado. They think there is no real way we could know that there is a tornado coming, because they cannot see the funnel clouds that the tornadoes make.
    Pareidolia. I totally agree that anybody can make scary eyes and a frowny face out of the cloud formation in the picture. I'm not talking about that. I'm taking about the feelings they invoke.

    "...but it still gave me a feeling that something memorable was going to happen during the night."
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."

  4. #614
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Pareidolia. I totally agree that anybody can make scary eyes and a frowny face out of the cloud formation in the picture. I'm not talking about that. I'm taking about the feelings they invoke.

    "...but it still gave me a feeling that something memorable was going to happen during the night."
    No, I don't believe that Ni isparticularly attached to feelings, even for INFJs. It's something that PeaceBaby noticed and remarked on in her blog, that for her with Fi dom, she's always getting "feeling impressions" of the world around her, kind of like listening to a symphony ... and because it's a symphony, she can hear what is in tune and out of tune. The Ni doms in that exchange (including myself) had noted that we really don't have a feeling until the end of a thought process, where we finally get that "oh!" or "ah ha!" kind of feeling. Until that point, things are held in a kind of detached state, w/r to both T or F judgments.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  5. #615
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    No, I don't believe that Ni isparticularly attached to feelings, even for INFJs. It's something that PeaceBaby noticed and remarked on in her blog, that for her with Fi dom, she's always getting "feeling impressions" of the world around her, kind of like listening to a symphony ... and because it's a symphony, she can hear what is in tune and out of tune. The Ni doms in that exchange (including myself) had noted that we really don't have a feeling until the end of a thought process, where we finally get that "oh!" or "ah ha!" kind of feeling. Until that point, things are held in a kind of detached state, w/r to both T or F judgments.
    I don't see any distinction between "feelings" and "feeling-impressions." I stated above that feelings aren't the same thing as emotions. A feeling is an impression which is a type of sensation generated internally, but not an emotion. So yeah, that's what I'm talking about, feelings (or feeling-impressions if you will), but not emotions, as I said above.

    As for Bagans, he doesn't go into great detail about the feeling he got from the cloud-formation, he only said he felt that something momentous was going to happen - meaning, the formation had future-predictive capacity for him. I don't think that's the same thing as the "oh!" or "ah ha!" kind of feeling. However, I wouldn't try to claim that the Ni function only produces one kind of feeling-impression.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."

  6. #616
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I don't see any distinction between "feelings" and "feeling-impressions." I stated above that feelings aren't the same thing as emotions. A feeling is an impression which is a type of sensation generated internally, but not an emotion. So yeah, that's what I'm talking about, feelings (or feeling-impressions if you will), but not emotions, as I said above.

    As for Bagans, he doesn't go into great detail about the feeling he got from the cloud-formation, he only said he felt that something momentous was going to happen - meaning, the formation had future-predictive capacity for him. I don't think that's the same thing as the "oh!" or "ah ha!" kind of feeling. However, I wouldn't try to claim that the Ni function only produces one kind of feeling-impression.
    Let's just say these "spooky" kinds of descriptions of Ni are what made me initially strongly doubt that I was Ni dom and look serious at INTP even though the descriptions for INTP didn't quite match up. INFJs seem to frequently get these kinds of impressions and relate them as such to others. For me as an INTJ, Ni is the ability to just "look at a problem" and know the solution, even though I've never encountered the problem before. The trick is that such problems have earmarks that make them look very similar to other problems, and once I see the pattern, I can figure out the rest without much effort. There is zero notion of a "feeling" or "feeling-impression" in my head when this happens. It's instantaneous; it works "without thinking".

    Once I realized that this was Ni, and it wasn't "spooky" or "mysterious", the INTJ typing as an Ni dom and aux Te fit me perfectly, and the INTP version with Ti and Ne did not fit. Both Ni and Ne see abstract patterns, but Ni sees particular kinds of patterns that aren't so visible to Ne (and vice-versa!), and seems to be a storehouse of these kinds of patterns, which are recalled as needed based on observations.

    tl; dr - Ni is not some sort of weird impressionistic cognitive function.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #617
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Zak Bagans commonly uses feeling-impressions, only they aren't 'ah-ha' moments which is the traditional form of intuition. The 'ah-ha' moment is, in my experience, more than a mere impression at any rate, but a strong, suddenly realization that is part feeling and part thought - the metaphorical light-bulb over the head.

    Bagans sees himself as a spiritual sensitive, meaning he has tuned his feeling-impressions of the world around him so that they present evidence of the unseen presence of spirits in his immediate environment. These are just a variety of common feelings, such as feeling cold, getting goose bumps, feeling the hairs raise up on your arm, etc. etc. - feelings commonly considered to be spooky. But these feelings do not carry with them the idea that there are ghosts. Ni gives the idea that there are ghosts. Any common thing, such as feelings or clouds, will be converted into ideas that are not derived from the empirical, objective, or scientific.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."

  8. #618
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Let's just say these "spooky" kinds of descriptions of Ni are what made me initially strongly doubt that I was Ni dom and look serious at INTP even though the descriptions for INTP didn't quite match up. INFJs seem to frequently get these kinds of impressions and relate them as such to others. For me as an INTJ, Ni is the ability to just "look at a problem" and know the solution, even though I've never encountered the problem before. The trick is that such problems have earmarks that make them look very similar to other problems, and once I see the pattern, I can figure out the rest without much effort. There is zero notion of a "feeling" or "feeling-impression" in my head when this happens. It's instantaneous; it works "without thinking".

    Once I realized that this was Ni, and it wasn't "spooky" or "mysterious", the INTJ typing as an Ni dom and aux Te fit me perfectly, and the INTP version with Ti and Ne did not fit. Both Ni and Ne see abstract patterns, but Ni sees particular kinds of patterns that aren't so visible to Ne (and vice-versa!), and seems to be a storehouse of these kinds of patterns, which are recalled as needed based on observations.

    tl; dr - Ni is not some sort of weird impressionistic cognitive function.
    I did read. The Ni function operates a little differently for INTJ. Zak Bagans is an INFJ - THUS, there will be more of a mystical or supernatural bent to his thinking. But thinking - in general - adds a skeptical element to the judging process because thinking is a process of deriving a truth, a concept, a principle, etc. Intuition however derives nothing, it simply senses. Thinking processes those feeling-sensations and does indeed filter them. This filtering adds a strong impression to others that the INTJ person is repressed (as also with the ISTJ).

    The INFJ, on the other hand, gives free reign to feeling-impressions. Case in point - a young lady of my acquaintance who tested as INFJ, and agreed with INFJ as her type - who told me that she collects these feelings and even gives them names.

    So in many ways the INTJ and INFJ are opposite sides of the same Ni.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."

  9. #619
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    From a Ghost Adventures forum:

    'My fiancé had some family pass away tragically in a car accident. Two weeks ago I was driving down the highway when the Carrie Underwood song "Temporary Home" came on the radio. I got cold and goosebumps; I knew that they were there' [cleaned up for grammar]. In other words, she believes the car accident victims were there with her in the car as ghosts.

    Chances are this person is either an ISFJ or an INFJ. Because when an introverted perceiving function is dominant, it gives irrational conviction to the belief; and when a Feeling function is secondary, it is far less likely to question the belief than a Thinking function would.
    "If you try to build something that is idiot-proof, the universe will build a better idiot."

  10. #620
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    What makes Ni different from a introverted judging function like Fi or Ti is that it is more detached and in its pure form does not pass judgment, but merely observes. Ni has more of a drive than Ne to have a sense of order imposed on reality, so it looks for core principles that account for patterns that are observed. In its pure form it is quite detached from reality making observations and connections, without the primary concern of whether those observations and patterns are moral or logical, but that they just are. Perceiving function can be more open to the true nature of reality, because they are less likely than the judging function to have a preconceived notion of what data "should" be dismissed for not matching the internal framework of assumptions. Ni is more ordered than Ne, but its order is very different from Fi or Ti because it dismisses nothing. Everything observed is taken in and viewed from every conceivable angle until it can find some resting place in the pattern.

    Imagine all the introverted functions as a tree. Fi and Ti take care of the tree by pruning away the branches, or adding in supports to help the tree grow straight, and removing any branches and leaves that do not promote the overall health and structure of the tree. Ni and Si observe the tree growing watching as the dead leaves and branches fall off, watching as its growth twists and turns to reach the sun. It keeps watching to understand the natural system it observes to see why the tree grows as it does.

    You can also imagine the introverted functions as puzzles. Fi and Ti will organize all the pieces and when they discover pieces that do not fit the picture of the puzzle, these will be thrown away to maintain the correctness and completeness of the picture of the puzzle being constructed. Ni and Si will take the odd pieces that don't fit the picture and place these into another pile for future reference. Everything has meaning, everything exists in connection to everything else. The only thing the observers does is to understand *how* it connects and fits and not *if* it connects and fits. So, the unwanted puzzle pieces remain in another pile for years until more pieces come in and hopefully complete that picture as well one day. The puzzle pieces came from some place, and they exist for some reason, so one must wait to understand how.

    Edit:One more metaphor. Image all the introverted functions metaphorically processing the incoming calls at a police station that is searching for an individual. Many of these calls are mistakes or pranks, so the police in true Fi or Ti form find systems to most effectively dismiss the false calls in order to focus on the correct ones. When these functions work well, they can optimize an interaction with reality because too much information is distracting. The downside is that they can at times dismiss pertinent information. Ni or Si would take in all the calls because each call happened for someone reason that might be useful information later. No call is dismissed, but instead the challenge is to make sense of the nature of each call and organize it based on whether it applies to this case, whether a batch of calls coming in might actually help find a second person who happened to look similar, or if a cluster of calls might help identify an area that has a characteristic that tends to produce false information. There is a reason each call came in, so the judging function dismisses anything not relevant to the task at hand, while the perceiving function takes in everything and makes sense of the reason why false calls are coming in as equally important to the reason correct calls are coming in.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
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