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  1. #591
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Ni vs Ne

    intuition x operative orientation = intuition x (semantic vs episodic. semantic vs pragmatic (linguistics). phonological loop vs visuo-spatial sketchpad. top-down vs bottom-up. intentional vs extensional. purpose vs process/path. balanced perspective vs balanced path. object vs action. subject vs predicate. mind identifying with mind vs mind identifying with matter. conservative vs liberal (psychologically). ancestral vs offspring. transcendent vs immanent. ancient vs modern. atemporal vs aspatial (kant's forms of intuition, which one is the foundation for the other?). assumed vs experiential. generalization vs specification (albeit given the recursive N cross-contextualization process). hierarchy vs heterarchy. condition vs rule. integration vs derivation. identity vs difference. unity vs multiplicity. outsidedness vs insidedness. ontlogical vs ontic. inductive vs deductive (times abductive). external validity vs internal validity. language vs physics. structure vs process. argument vs explanation. map vs territory)

    it's part of a flow of information. they're not things in themselves. they're directions. hell, i still think the left-brain/right-brain approximations are the best at capturing this. in yoga psychologies, they're often referred to as "channels."

  2. #592
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Just came to realize, that I described Ne as looking at a bunch of "objects" in the environment (like multiple patterns a given pattern can be compared to), but tI think Ni can look at multiple patterns in the environment also, the difference will be, and what Ni will do internally is choose one of them as the most possible, where to Ne they can all be "possible".

    I recalled the definition of [all] introverted functions as all "abstracting" what's most relevant, and subtracting from it what isn't. So Ni and Ne will look at all the same data, but Ne will accept whatever is in the environment, while Ni will individually filter according to the unconscious impressions. For the Ne type to abstract what's most relevant, they will have to use their judgment (which will be the introverted preference), which will rationally do the sorting, where Ni will do the sorting irrationally, so rather than a [rational] true/false or good/bad determination of what's right, it will come out as a a "knowing" or the so-called "a-ha" (then the judgment will be used to handle the environmental aspect of the data).
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  3. #593
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Just came to realize, that I described Ne as looking at a bunch of "objects" in the environment (like multiple patterns a given pattern can be compared to), but tI think Ni can look at multiple patterns in the environment also, the difference will be, and what Ni will do internally is choose one of them as the most possible, where to Ne they can all be "possible".

    I recalled the definition of [all] introverted functions as all "abstracting" what's most relevant, and subtracting from it what isn't. So Ni and Ne will look at all the same data, but Ne will accept whatever is in the environment, while Ni will individually filter according to the unconscious impressions. For the Ne type to abstract what's most relevant, they will have to use their judgment (which will be the introverted preference), which will rationally do the sorting, where Ni will do the sorting irrationally, so rather than a [rational] true/false or good/bad determination of what's right, it will come out as a a "knowing" or the so-called "a-ha" (then the judgment will be used to handle the environmental aspect of the data).
    I think this is an accurate depiction. For Ne types, the patterns spotted in the external environment are what is regarded as "true". This is the case for all extroverted functions, including Se (the details of the external environment are regarded as true), Te (the logistics of the external environment are regarded as true), and Fe (the emotional interactions of the external environment are regarded as true). And by "true", I mean, pun intended, "objectively true". When arguments happen, if you try to argue against what someone regards as objectively true, they'll think you're a complete idiot or ignoramus who can't see the obvious truth before your eyes. Which functions are extroverted is critical, as it determines the more or less commonly visible facts that an individual regards as true.

    The introverted functions work similarly, but in this case, the "obviously true" thing is entirely subjective - even though the individual in question will often regard it as objective. So for the Ni dom, the internal patterns are regarded as true. For the Ti dom, the internal idealized logic is regarded as true. But these truths are never obvious to other individuals, and even other individuals of the same type will usually be blind to them, as they are often unique to a type. Only the extroverted functions provide a bridge, however indirect, to the internal psyche.

    In the case of an INTJ, the internal patterns are "true", and the external logistics are "true". Putting these together, the INTJ takes the external logistics and looks for patterns. When a pattern is spotted that corresponds to an internally held pattern, the INTJ takes that internal pattern, overlays it on the externally spotted pattern (via Te), and that immediately makes visible all the inconsistencies of the pattern vs reality. There are three basic paths of thought:
    1. There are no inconsistencies. The INTJ is "right", and fully understands what is going on (in a Te sense).
    2. The inconsistencies indicate a problem with the Te pattern, and therefore making the Te pattern correspond to the Ni pattern will "fix it".
    3. The inconsistencies indicate a problem with the Ni pattern. In this case, the Te pattern is correct, and is added to the Ni library of patterns.


    The more introverted INTJ will tend to favor Ni over Te, and be more inclined to confirmation bias and conspiracy theories, and thus will tend to favor patterns (1) and (2), and regard (3) as not very likely. A more balanced/experienced INTJ will focus more on (3) as a possibility.

    You can swap Te with Ne, and Ti with Ni in the above and you'll get a similar process with the perceptions and judgments are reversed. The logic in this case is internal and the patterns are external.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #594
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Just came to realize, that I described Ne as looking at a bunch of "objects" in the environment (like multiple patterns a given pattern can be compared to), but tI think Ni can look at multiple patterns in the environment also, the difference will be, and what Ni will do internally is choose one of them as the most possible, where to Ne they can all be "possible".
    we just synthesize them. we move toward singularity. when focusing on Ni work, we find common denominators to integrate them. it's less story driven.

    i liken it to going into a trance to remove the layers of noise. everything is a clue to get to the deepest concentratedness. how can you best know the eternity of something? decidedly unsequenced. there's no line em up press play multiplicity. there's simply IS. a stand-in placeholder driven disclosure of omnipresence. what holds this and everything else together? what is the weave itself made of? how can we better know the rules of space itself?

    the Ne side is about the path and the way of moving along with and through it. it's not about the perfectly still silent suspendedness of all aliveness and the bias that such structures impose upon consciousness. it's diving into the stream.

  5. #595

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    Honestly, if you want to know Ni, just watch The Matrix - such a self-serious film that preaches "peeking behind" the curtain of reality.

    "You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it - you've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what is its, but it's there - like a splinter inside your mind, driving you mad."

    I'd put money on one or both of the Wachowskis being Ni-dominant

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  6. #596
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I may have earlier mentioned an example I was given, of looking at a map and realizing that something important exists beyond the frame. Whatever it is, it isn't drawn yet on the map; which just ends there. So the task is to locate within some sense of what's missing and find a way to bring it to language that others can hear and understand.
    Lenore had said in her book “For INJ’s, the patterns aren’t ‘out there’ in the world, waiting to be discovered. They’re part of us [i.e. internal]—the way we make sense of the riot of information and energy impinging on our systems.” (p.225). I believe what this is saying is that what lies "beyond the map" for instance represents patterns that are inside of us, and thus knowable, but are not conscious, and thus will only come up as "hunches", which may be ignored by most types.
    So when I was given the map example, I thought of two streets that are converging when the map ends, and figuring they must meet (but then realizing they might not). But that is actually looking at the object [in this case, the map], and thus Ne. (With the "correct"— according to individual deduction judgment, of Ti. And of course, Si would represent remembering seeing the next map, and thus knowing what was there, and Se would represent getting the next map and just look at it directly).

    So I guess another comparison of Ni with Si would be Si remembering the simple facts of experience more clearly, where it is still images of tangible items, while Ni might also involve experienced stuff, but it's forgotten, and yet is still can come up and influence your perceptions of things in a more "abstract" way.
    (What makes it difficult, is that Jung described iNtuition as "unconscious", but he also described introversion as an orientation as "unconsious" as well. So both Si and Ni ⦅and Ne⦆ will all be "unconscious" in one way and/or the other, and it's hard to place each function in relation to each other when labeled with that term).
    So it would be like Se experieincing something, and simply reacting to whatever presents itself. Si experiences something, and "Stores" this for future reference. With Ni, the person has forgotten the experience, but bits and pieces of it reside in the subconscious, and he has a sense of the outcome, though he can't really put a finger on it or describe it well. (And then will often set out to employ symbols to describe things. And Ne will reference similar experiences and infer the outcome from that).

    So would the Ni preferrers say that that fits their functional experience?
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  7. #597
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Hello dead forum,

    I've just had an Ne moment about the Ni function as described by Jung.

    Carl Jung described supernatural and psychic events as if they were synchronicity or manifestations of the collective unconscious. Therefore, his description of the Ni function - the function most aware of its unconscious content - is biased by his reduction of the supernatural to the psychological.
    "There seems to be a deep instinct in human beings to make compulsory that which isn't forbidden."
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  8. #598
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "In Boise, Idaho, I was an hour away from conducting an [paranormal] investigation of the Old Idaho State Prison when black storm clouds blew in from the west and the temperature suddenly dropped. That wasn’t significant by itself, but two gaping holes in the sky opened up over the prison like eyes looking down on us. It was a meteorological phenomenon, but it still gave me a feeling that something memorable was going to happen during the night." Zak Bagans, "Dark World."

    Can there be any more beautiful example of the Ni function in action?
    "There seems to be a deep instinct in human beings to make compulsory that which isn't forbidden."
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  9. #599
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Hello dead forum,

    I've just had an Ne moment about the Ni function as described by Jung.

    Carl Jung described supernatural and psychic events as if they were synchronicity or manifestations of the collective unconscious. Therefore, his description of the Ni function - the function most aware of its unconscious content - is biased by his reduction of the supernatural to the psychological.
    I think there is something to that. He delved fairly deeply into various aspects of mysticism. It would make sense that he didn't entirely compartmentalize it, but integrated it into his analysis. Things like synchronicity and collective unconscious are really just things that are normally common, but they're so weird and personal people think it's something magical.

    Sort of like this:

    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think there is something to that. He delved fairly deeply into various aspects of mysticism. It would make sense that he didn't entirely compartmentalize it, but integrated it into his analysis. Things like synchronicity and collective unconscious are really just things that are normally common, but they're so weird and personal people think it's something magical.

    Sort of like this:

    Better to describe what something (Ni) IS rather then describing its functions (Function in the mathematical sense not cognitive sense). They are not the same thing. Also, Ni can never be looked at in isolation. As 8 cognitive types use Ni for 2 different purposes. (Conceptual Actions and Conceptual Principles). INTJ's, INFJ's, ENFJ's, ENTJ's use Ni for Conceptual Principles. Models/Beliefs about the world through generalizations. While ESFP's, ESTP's, ISFP's, INFP's use Ni for Conceptual Actions. Or actions based on what they think will happen based on general situations.

    Ask an INTJ how Ni works for actions and they won't be able to tell you. They use it to think of Conceptual Principles about the world and they use Te to take the most useful action based on those principles.

    Now from the two sets of behaviors mentioned above SPAWN all types of behaviors, some often become very very different then what most people think of when they think of Ni. What's interesting is that an INFJ (most zoomed out all of types) may not use Ni the same way a INTJ does even though the purpose of the cognitive function is the same (Conceptual Principles). The reason is because the rest of the functions are different and so each cognitive iteration produces a different tilt. (Hence an INTJ may spend a lot of time on totally different thoughts then say an INFJ because each function feeds into the next and then it all comes around full circle). Combine that with the infinite number of inputs from the environment and you are going to find RADICALLY different behaviors for the same cognitive function. Trying to figure out your COGNITIVE function through behavior is OK so long as you realize you are going about it backwards and you can only at best hope to use behavior as a guide but not a rule. In short Behavior (the function) radically divorces itself from the cognitive function itself due to nonlinearities.
    Last edited by andresimon; 08-08-2015 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Clarity
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