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Thread: Ni - What the hell is it?

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    Senior Member Array Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I once thought that (that the function didn't make any sense, and Jung must have filled it in to "finish" the theory).

    All data has to come from the senses, originally. Nothing starts purely from inside, without any input from the world. It's what we do with the "impression" the senses makes, that etermines the function-attitude.

    From Lenore's book:

    Se: Sense impressions as they occur [from the outside, of course.
    Si: stabilize our sense impressions by integrating them with ones we remember (past experience) [i.e. internal storehouse]
    Ne: unify sense impressions with larger [outward] contexts
    Ni: liberate sense impressions from larger contexts; patterns are part of us [i.e. internal, also largely unconscious]; the way we make sense of information and energy impinging on our systems.
    Eric, have you ever considered a Dynamic-Static approach to cognitive functions? With the Introverted Perception functions dealing with tracking how things (objects, people, design) affect or leave impressions on either the self, the environment, or others, and the Extroverted Perception functions dealing with the features of things (objects, people, design), their describable qualities that can be separated from the self?

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I once thought that (that the function didn't make any sense, and Jung must have filled it in to "finish" the theory).

    All data has to come from the senses, originally. Nothing starts purely from inside, without any input from the world. It's what we do with the "impression" the senses makes, that etermines the function-attitude.

    From Lenore's book:

    Se: Sense impressions as they occur [from the outside, of course.
    Si: stabilize our sense impressions by integrating them with ones we remember (past experience) [i.e. internal storehouse]
    Ne: unify sense impressions with larger [outward] contexts
    Ni: liberate sense impressions from larger contexts; patterns are part of us [i.e. internal, also largely unconscious]; the way we make sense of information and energy impinging on our systems.
    Once again: so ambiguous as to be meaningless. No one can offer a definition that is simple and unambiguous. Patterns are part of us? what?

    Unicorns...

  3. #543
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Eric, have you ever considered a Dynamic-Static approach to cognitive functions? With the Introverted Perception functions dealing with tracking how things (objects, people, design) affect or leave impressions on either the self, the environment, or others, and the Extroverted Perception functions dealing with the features of things (objects, people, design), their describable qualities that can be separated from the self?
    I had considered "dynamic/static" for S/N not too long ago (based on the Fundamental Nature of the MBTI site, which represented S products as static dots and N as the connections between them), but that wasn't simple enough apparently.
    What I'm going with regarding the functions now, I've just spelled out here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...functions.html

    I'll think on what you've just described. Did you get that from somewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Once again: so ambiguous as to be meaningless. No one can offer a definition that is simple and unambiguous. Patterns are part of us? what?

    Unicorns...
    Yes, she could have been a bit more clear there, but what it's referring to (as I annotated) is the unconscious.
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  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I had considered "dynamic/static" for S/N not too long ago (based on the Fundamental Nature of the MBTI site, which represented S products as static dots and N as the connections between them), but that wasn't simple enough apparently.
    What I'm going with regarding the functions now, I've just spelled out here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...functions.html

    I'll think on what you've just described. Did you get that from somewhere?
    I acquired it from my time with Socionics. The Reinen Dichotomy of Static-Dynamic is a fairly useful one in determining type, but falls short in that the whole theory has been pretty much constructed by Alpha NTs (Static types), and thus draws the simplified conclusion that Dynamics involves generality, the general motion of things, which it does, but that isn't necessarily a good counter-perspective to Statics. Realistically, dynamics see the effects objects have on each other, while statics perceive the objects themselves and their placement in space.

    Here are some excerpts of footnotes from one of my threads over on the Socionics forum that explains and

    * =/= change over time (consequence of Socionics being constructed by Alphas), but rather comprises a deeper understanding in what is actually happening in the physical world, not what appears to be happening. Things are not always as they seem to be, there is always something more going on, or there is something that produces a deeper yet intangible or almost invisible effect on everything around it. Predictions are a natural consequence of this perspective, as types are always scanning the essentials of the dynamics of the environment around them (much like how types are always grasping the essentials of static ideas and making them easier to understand, types are always grasping the gists of moving situations and making them easier to understand).

    **The Socionics Misconception about is that it is always related to comfort or internal bodily sensations, but that is not so. can be a cognizance of the mechanical effects objects produce on the environment around them, what their presence does for the entire physical system. Driving over one specific spot in a road, for instance, will produce an effect on the road physically, it will wear it down in that one spot. A person struggling with the basic construction of a structure, nailing in planks and boards, for instance, will lead to a less-than-adequate framework that may reduce the structural integrity of the building, and it may be susceptible to collapse.
    Now, do note that also deals with the internal experience, how objects have an effect on those experiencing them. Many types, usually SEI, are noted for their aesthetic "taste", and "taste" is considered to be an aspect of - the ability to see how certain colors affect each other (do they clash? do they complement?), the ability to see how comfortable people are or how comfortable they themselves are, and a myriad of other functions all having to deal with physical effects.

    The Extroverted Perception elements are much easier to comprehend, as they are focused on the features of objects.

  5. #545
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    How could I forget Socionics. Someone was recently explaining that dichotomy to me, and I knew I had seen the terms somewhere else.
    I like how they have everything categorized and named, though I'm not sure about some of the concepts and definitions/[interpretations of Jung]. I like how western theory is catching up with that stuff, like in Cognitive Styles, Type Logic, etc.
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    Member Array Belle of Kilronan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Excerpts from Personality Types: An Owners Manual by Lenore Thomson:

    "Whatever types we happen to be, we use all four means of Perception in one way or another. For example, imagine we are spending a day at the beach:

    • Extraverted Sensing would prompt us to go with out sense impressions as they occurred: to lie in the sun, play in the surf, listen to the gulls piping overhead.
    • Introverted Sensing would move us to stabilize our sense impressions by integrating them with facts we knew to be consistent. We might bring our favorite book, or snorkel and flippers, a bag of snacks, extra towels because someone will probably forget one, and a watch to make sure we beat traffic at home.
    • Extraverted Intuition would move us to unify our sense impressions with their larger context, thereby creating new options for meaning and response. For example, as we lie on our blanket in the sun, perhaps we hear music in the distance. Someone passing by mentions a great restaurant in town. Suddenly we're thinking: Hey, there must be an amusement park nearby. If it's on our way to tow, we can check out the rides before look for that restuarant that passerby was talking about. In fact, maybe the guy knows other places we should consider. Where'd he go?
    • Introverted Intuition would prompt us to liberate our sense impressions from their larger context, thereby creating new options for perception itself. For example, we might find ourselves wondering why people feel so strongly about getting a new tan. We remember reading somewhere that before the Industrial Revolution, being tan marked one as a manual laborer, because it suggested work outdoors. After the Industrial Revolution, it was pale skin that suggested manual labor, because it indicated work in a poorly lit factory. Such correlations aren't relevant today, but a good tan is still considered attractive. Why is that? We consider raising the question as a topic of conversation, but we're pretty sure our friends will think we're observing a situation rather than enjoying it." (This is the story of my life, btw. -_-)




    Some other quotes from the same book that might be helpful:

    "Extraverted Intuition versus Introverted Intuition

    Extraverted intuitives are right-brained types who deal with their sense impressions by unifying them into larger outward patterns. Am ENxP physician, for example, may realize, with sudden insight, that several unexplained symptoms are actually part of a single disease. As an extraverted type, the physician has no doubt that the disease syndrome really exists. The pattern was always there, waiting for someone to discover it. What's important now is telling others about the discovery--getting people to see that the new model offers more options than the old.

    Introverted intuitives don't think this way. For INJs, patterns aren't "out there" in the world, waiting to be discovered. They're part of us--the way we make sense of the riot of information and energy impinging on our systems. A disease syndrome is a useful construct, but that's all it is--an aggregate of observations attached to a label, telling us what to see and how to deal with it.

    Given their real-life consequences, mental constructs don't strike INJs as imaginary or irrelevant. They're merely arbitrary, derived from a particular view of life. For this reason, they can trap us into holding that view--say, that physicians are in the business of cure rather than prevention--without being aware of its effects."



    And finally, another tidbit of interest:

    "Most types rely on [Ni] to contend with ambiguities of meaning and perception--that is, to see that a situation can be interpreted in more than one way. We may use it, for example, to acknowledge the possibility of both scientific and religious positions on life after death, or to deal with incompatible experiences of self and solidarity at work, home, and among friends.

    It may seem peculiar, therefore, to depend on this function for one's primary understanding of reality. If INJs are seeing things from many (sometimes conflicting) perspectives, on what basis would they ever take action?

    It should be emphasized that INJs are very much like ENPs in this respect. Where [Ne]s see many behavioral options, INJs acknowledge many conceptual standpoints. They experience no need to declare one inherently better than the other. Indeed, these types have a disconcerting habit of solving a problem by shifting their perspective and defining the situation in some other way."


    I really recommend this book for anyone trying to understand Jungian types on a theoretical/conceptual level. =)
    This was actually helpful. Thank you.

  7. #547
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    Well, here's how I think it works.

    Ni thinks in lines of thought.

    Ne also does.

    Difference is that Ne lines are shorter, and thus there can be more of them.

    Key thing you'd notice with an Ni user is that he/she is very pensive. At least with me, I tend to look up and to the right when I think. And this is for the heavy thinking, like when I am trying to find an answer I don't know, or that is hard to understand. Of the T Ni users, I don't know how they perceive it.

    Don't know about Ne.

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    Senior Member Array htb's Avatar
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    The best way to understand Ni is to have it described by those who use it primarily or often enough. The best way to understand how Ni contributes to human behavior is through real-life examples.

    In my experience Ni's a conclusion assembled from knowledge and memory in the subconscious.

    It emerges as an insight, interpretation, vision, premonition, etc. Some constituent parts can be guessed at by the individual, especially if new data is obviously involved, but the amalgamation is broad and I doubt all parts could ever be identified, let alone explained, let alone justified to others. I certainly have never succeeded.

    As a professional in a creative field, I've seen my own Ni placed in sharp relief against Ne, corroborating online descriptions. Ne is a bush grown from a root. Ni is that, upside-down; an ultimate convergence of lines. In a business environment where conflicting parties seek influence, and management happens to be dominated by perceiving types, Ne is much more valuable because it aids negotiation with options, in the form of ideas, as plentifully as it's exercised. Ideas good, bad and in-between can be shuffled and mixed; often with successful creative results and surely to the political benefit of the user thanks to a hedging of bets. Brainstorming sessions are pure Ne; I hate them, because they seem desultory and contrived to me. I think that's because Ni produces a single idea in about the same time it takes Ne to produce just a few, but with a high level of detail and degree of depth apparent instantly and cultivable after only a short period. Whether it's the exhaustion of Ni or pride surrounding its use, I swiftly eliminate other big-picture alternatives and commit to an idea. As you might expect, that's a lot to gamble on. Don Draper's sweeping gestalts work most of the time because Mad Men's writers know he's Don Draper.

  9. #549
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    @Stanton Moore

    Ni - take one thing, build a solid future from it, which looks flimsy until it actually happens.

    Yeah I don't know either.

    *EDIT*

    Wait I got another: Ni is a memory of the future.... ooooooooo!
    Last edited by Cellmold; 01-31-2015 at 02:49 PM.

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    Looking back over other stuff Lenore said, what she meant by “patterns are in us” is in comparison to Ne, which takes them for granted, the key phrase is that Ni sees them as merely “arbitrary”. Hence, her description of freeing sense impressions from their larger contexts (i.e. the memorized external patterns everyone takes for granted. And again, we may associate "memory" wth Si, but the pattern is taken in through the external world, and the only way to be able to reference it; to compare other patterns, is through memory. Since we're dealing with mental constructs and not physical items, "location" works very differently, and it can still be "external", though technically internal).
    The data is then filled in from an internal sense of other possibilities, “new perspectives”; or “what's missing” from the pattern. This is what was then attributed to the “unconscious”, and what then will suddenly come up as the proverbial “aha moment” when it does enter consciousness.
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