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  1. #531
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmj85 View Post
    Hi Eric,

    Yeah - it's a puzzling one for sure. Also, if I'm not mistaken we have spoken at reasonable length in the past (over on PerC). Apologies if I'm mistaken, but if you are the same person I believe you to be, thanks - you helped me quite a lot back when I most needed it I eventually submitted myself for professional typing, but the advice 'you' offered was pretty much spot on. I think you *may* have slightly edged towards ENFJ, but if I recall correctly you later retracted that and said that I must be an INFJ. It was quite a confusing time.

    Vague memories, but you helped me to clarify things.

    Oh, I just noticed your avatar. Ha! Yeah - it was you ;p
    Yeah, as much as I try to help with this stuff, I'm always trying to refine my understanding, and make sure I'm getting it right myself, and Ni has (understandably) been the most difficult to understand and convey.
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  2. #532

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    Ni is extremely hard to understand - even us Ni dominants struggle! That article is the closest I have ever come to really pinning it down; ultimately, words aren't sufficient.

    People who have experienced altered states of consciousness (by way of substances like DMT) often say that words alone cannot begin to convey the experience. Ni is a lot like that. That being said, a few Ni dominants have been in touch with me re: the article. I've had a resounding "This strikes a chord" response, so it must have hit some mark, somewhere.

    Ni is a liberation. A transcendence. I would assume that it lends great foresight to INTJs. To us INFJs, it makes life an incredibly beautiful and mystical experience. But... shit. It's multi faceted. It can also allow me to peer into the depths of a person, it allows me to know things without knowing HOW I know something.

    It's...

    It's very confusing :p

  3. #533
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I meant to add, I often would wonder how Ni would come out for Christians I think might be NJ's in our environment, which is heavy SJ. (Even the Berens book mentiones that we don't get much training in this kind of process int his society"). All of that "altered states of consciousness" would be looked on with suspicion, at least when put that way.
    However, the people would likely simply attribute it to "God speaking to them" in normal "prayer"/meditation. (I tend to think that many Christians are trying, a bit unnaturally, to prolong the "divine intervention" they read about in scripture, in this age where "special revelation" has clearly ceased. This ends up producing this "inner"-focused religion, especially among Charismatics; and what they don't realize, is that rather than "testifying" to the rest of the world that it's really God working in them, it only "proves" to everyone that "God" is only some "inner" thing, and thus it doesn't really matter which religion one uses to access it).

    So the point is, this is how their otherwise "unusual" form of perception would blend nicely into a heavy Si Christian environment. They'll probably be the ones more insistent that God really "speaks" to us, while the majority SJ's go through the motion because it's what we're "supposed" to do, but they'll be the ones to admit that it's hard to really hear what God says anew, and instead rely on the way he's "already spoken" to us in scripture. (Which I tended to fall back on, though with Ne in front, ponder on why direct revleation doesn't continue, and often gro weary of either of the other approaches, especially when neither has produced any consistent doctrinal unity).
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  4. #534

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    Some thoughts I had on Ni today.

    I can only say of Ni, my dominant function that it is my primary way of understanding the world, of taking in information via my senses, the same as anyone else, yet it makes an underlying, abstract connection of this information.

    Ni is activated 24/7. It's always ON.

    I take in every bit of info around me and it constantly makes connections with other information gathered in order to synthesize a deeper understanding, a higher meaning. It happens internally, so there's not usually a lot of talking that is going on during the process. But there is a lot of noise in my head.

    I subconsciously and consciously evaluate every piece of information to see where it fits into my overall understanding of the grand scheme of things. It has to somehow contribute to the big picture. Even apparently random stuff has meaning and purpose in the overall scheme of things. Everything is a thread in the tapestry of my existence.

    I am driven to seek a deeper meaning and purpose in life. I have learned that when people look at me with that glazed-over-what-planet-are-you-from look that I should just not even engage. So, many times I mentally walk away and keep the conversation on a level they’re comfortable with. People think I'm just really cool and reserved, but mostly it's because I often feel like I'm explaining the experience of color to someone born without eyes.

    I am very adept at connecting the dots. Ni dominants are idea people. Ni has the ability to synthesize an overall pattern and predict a plausible outcome.

    I think that in real life, I’m pretty people savvy. Still, it’s important to note that while a well-developed intuition can often be dead on the money, intuition can also be wrong sometimes. It must be balanced with logical thought or else you end up with a fruitcake on your hands, which is fine for an occasional dessert, but you can't live on fruitcake alone.

    Ni dominants subconsciously and sometimes consciously seek to find answers to their questions. They need closure.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
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  5. #535
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I really liked this post, OA.


    This is so close to being dead-on accurate. It only has one flaw, which you can see if you compare it to Si. Si references internally stored archetypes, too. However, Si doesn't CHOOSE them: they were created by experience.

    Similarly, Ni doesn't "choose" the perspective it perceives, as much as it might seem like it to others. Rather, think of both Si and Ni as libraries of experiences. Si stores the concrete, literal versions of those experiences, but doesn't tend to keep functional/purpose/meaning-based attributes of it. Ni stores a more functional/purpose/meaning-based version of experiences, but tends to lose track of the concrete specifics.

    Both Si and Ni can quickly pull up their respective libraries, and quickly rifle through the index to pull up the most relevant past experience.

    So what Ni does is look at reality, e.g., at a problem, and immediately sees "what kind of problem" it is, pulls out the Ni-experience that relates to it, and it is nigh-instantly solved. (Just as if you'd asked Si about a fact, and the Si individual immediately recites the correct fact to you.)

    Ni doesn't remember facts. It remembers how to solve "that kind of problem" in a very abstract way. As you might notice, putting "that kind of problem" into more concrete terms is very difficult.
    wow, mind blowing. Yes, concepts I only deal in concepts, it feels like breaking my brain when I have to recall facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You are going to have more of an understanding of Ne than I do, but I don't think Ne chooses a perspective either.

    Perhaps the difference is that you are judging dom and I am perceiving dom? You always end up choosing what you look at and how you look at it, perhaps? A blindness of Ni doms is that we don't really feel like we're "choosing" anything, that it's just there, but it probably looks like a "choice" to others.
    wow, another thing I have great difficulty trying to explain when someone asks me to make a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Again, the notion of "whatever it is they want it to be" is off. This is how it looks to others, not to oneself. What you are experiencing perhaps from other Ni types is that they appear to want to change whatever it is you believe to be true, and you're immediate thought is likely, "But that's reality. You don't get to change that."

    The reality is that they see a different reality than you do. They're looking at a different set of interconnections that you don't readily see, just as you see interconnections that Ni doms don't readily see.

    Ni doms don't "choose" that perspective that they apply. It's what they see. It is their reality. AND they don't often realize that other people don't look at the world that way. Self-awareness for an INTJ is when we realize that no, we aren't that smart, but rather we simply don't look at the world the way everyone else seems to. Most people don't look at the world and see a complex system of cause-and-effect that can be altered in fundamental ways. One surprise for me was that what most people view as static, I see as entirely flexible and changeable. Conversely, what most people view as flexible and changeable I see as almost-immutable law, e.g., analogous to the laws of physics.
    So many times, people that work with me, will say I'm smart, but I don't feel smart. I feel comfortable in certain fields that everybody else seems to have a hard time with. But the opposite happens for me in their "easy category".

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Interesting perspective, here. I think what you are encountering is the different visions of the world, again, which see different kinds of things as mutable/immutable.

    Quick and dirty function-theory version: To Ne/Si, the concrete is immutable, the abstract is mutable. To Ni/Se, the abstract is immutable, the concrete is mutable.
    This explains so much. I'm always the one sticking to my concept, while only fiddling with the parameters.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    More likely, circumstances changed (Se is mutable) which drew up a different Ni-experience-model-abstraction. To you, it looks like they just totally changed their mind, and don't even remember that you had just proven them wrong, for example. What really happened is that you believe there is only one context (Si is immutable), therefore the Ni dom just did a 180-degree logical reversal.
    sounds so familiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    My ENFP ex and I had some really weird arguments along these lines early in our relationship, until after an explanation of mine she realized, "Hey, waitaminute! You changed context. You're not even talking about what I'm talking about now!" To which I replied, "Yes. Exactly. Why wasn't that obvious before?"

    You might wonder how that fits into Ni being immutable. Ni is still immutable because the old context didn't just disappear. It still exists in abstract, but doesn't apply now in the concrete instance. If the context switched back, you'd hear the same arguments as before the original switch. Further, there can be kind of a "chaos theory" kind of effect: a slight change in circumstances can produce a radically different conclusion even when maintaining the same Ni-understanding. Physics and math are full of things like this, where the math doesn't change at all, but a slightly different input value produces a significantly different result.
    The only example I could think of is something like acceleration.

    When reading this thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...clarifier.html It completely threw me off, off Ni. Thinking that I didn't use or had preference for Ni. Does visual have anything to do with it?

  6. #536
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Of all the functions, this is probably the hardest to understand what it means.

    I mean you read a description and it's like "Knowing thins instinctively" and "Experiencing Premonitions" and it's just like WTF? It's hardly an explanation of how a mental function works. Does anyone have a better explanation? I can almost never tell definitively in characters if what they are using is Ne or Ni, since both are abstract idea generators and pattern connectors, supposedly.

    Disappointing take that account down.
    How come this came out of you?
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  7. #537
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Some thoughts I had on Ni today.

    I can only say of Ni, my dominant function that it is my primary way of understanding the world, of taking in information via my senses, the same as anyone else, yet it makes an underlying, abstract connection of this information.

    Ni is activated 24/7. It's always ON.

    I take in every bit of info around me and it constantly makes connections with other information gathered in order to synthesize a deeper understanding, a higher meaning. It happens internally, so there's not usually a lot of talking that is going on during the process. But there is a lot of noise in my head.

    I subconsciously and consciously evaluate every piece of information to see where it fits into my overall understanding of the grand scheme of things. It has to somehow contribute to the big picture. Even apparently random stuff has meaning and purpose in the overall scheme of things. Everything is a thread in the tapestry of my existence.

    I am driven to seek a deeper meaning and purpose in life. I have learned that when people look at me with that glazed-over-what-planet-are-you-from look that I should just not even engage. So, many times I mentally walk away and keep the conversation on a level they’re comfortable with. People think I'm just really cool and reserved, but mostly it's because I often feel like I'm explaining the experience of color to someone born without eyes.

    I am very adept at connecting the dots. Ni dominants are idea people. Ni has the ability to synthesize an overall pattern and predict a plausible outcome.

    I think that in real life, I’m pretty people savvy. Still, it’s important to note that while a well-developed intuition can often be dead on the money, intuition can also be wrong sometimes. It must be balanced with logical thought or else you end up with a fruitcake on your hands, which is fine for an occasional dessert, but you can't live on fruitcake alone.

    Ni dominants subconsciously and sometimes consciously seek to find answers to their questions. They need closure.
    My significant other sent me this today... which was coincidence as I read @uumlau's and @Ene's posts.



    She said that she gives me the same look like the 2nd dog that is not speaking (green collar), when I say something "crazy".

    edit: I would say that I constantly seek answers to questions, it will always be at the back of my mind until I run into something that solves the question/problem/challenge. I definitely need closure.

  8. #538

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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    My significant other sent me this today... which was coincidence as I read @uumlau's and @Ene's posts.



    She said that she gives me the same look like the 2nd dog that is not speaking, when I say something "crazy".
    I LOVE that! LOL. Thank you for posting it.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  9. #539
    morose bourgeoisie
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    If Ni 'takes information from your senses' then by definition, it is Ne.
    Ni does not exist. Not one person can profer a definition that makes any sense, not even so-called Ni doms.
    Face it guys, it's just a tidy shortcut to finish Jung's theory, to make it 'balanced', but it simply doesn't make sense beyond it's function as an ego-syntonic booster for some folks: 'I'm an Ni dom!' I have magic in my blood, ordained by the gods!'.
    I'ts a fantasy, the psychological equivalent of a unicorn.
    Last edited by Stanton Moore; 11-29-2014 at 01:36 PM.

  10. #540
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I once thought that (that the function didn't make any sense, and Jung must have filled it in to "finish" the theory).

    All data has to come from the senses, originally. Nothing starts purely from inside, without any input from the world. It's what we do with the "impression" the senses makes, that etermines the function-attitude.

    From Lenore's book:

    Se: Sense impressions as they occur [from the outside, of course.
    Si: stabilize our sense impressions by integrating them with ones we remember (past experience) [i.e. internal storehouse]
    Ne: unify sense impressions with larger [outward] contexts
    Ni: liberate sense impressions from larger contexts; patterns are part of us [i.e. internal, also largely unconscious]; the way we make sense of information and energy impinging on our systems.
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