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  1. #511
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    To summarize, I think the Ne/Si types sense the problems that don't have a solution, and try to ignore those, as you suggest, instead working on the problems they can solve. I don't think they can sense the "invisible problems" as I describe them. They instead see a working system that shouldn't be touched, because in their own experience, every time it gets touched, it breaks.
    I think we should call that Si/Ne, or a very, very mature NP .

    A young NP is reckless. NPs are arguably the most destructive of existing systems, for the hell of it. We are not as obviously rebellious as SPs, perhaps, because it's not so much in the physical realm. We're not focused on solving small problems to keep things running smoothly - refinement is not our gig. It's about what can be done, so that even if something existing works, why not explore other ways?

    I "waste" a lot of time experimenting at work - but sometimes I come across a new way that makes something more efficient the next time I do it. I especially will do this with repetitive tasks, because I want to shoot myself otherwise. I will do it in different ways to see how much faster/easier I can make it. When I do find a very fast, easy way, then I may repeat that, but I'd be totally open to a new way if it were even less tedious. If there's any resistance to new systems, it's having to learn new details that I find tedious, when I may have felt I just figured out how to cut out the details. If I can learn it fast and it has few tedious details, then I'm all for it.

    As a kid in school, SPs acted up in class physically and were reprimanded for it - they were testing physical boundaries. However, I quickly figured out the teacher's grading system and sought to subvert it. I would earn the A on my terms, finding loopholes to exploit and alternative interpretations for assignments, and the teacher often suspected nothing. The ones who caught on sort of subtly admired this, chuckled, and let me be. In life, some SJs catch onto this and are very suspicious of you. They see you "getting away with" stuff, but they find it hard to call out, which irritates them.

    If I believed the system worked and was best, then I'd follow it, but I more often find myself working around it. I'm just not openly rebellious unless it's some Fi value violation. I suppose NPs oppose only when necessary, but we work around rather with a system, so that new or old, the system may simply be irrelevant to our methods.

    Edit: I should add that the Pe mentality is also a confidence that you can deal with stuff as it arises. So we don't tend to try to foresee problems, but this is not out of attachment to a system. Although Ne can work to see negative potential, it doesn't sweat details too much. The aversion to planning comes from the mentality that we can figure it out as it happens, which is also energizing, whereas following a planned schedule feels tedious. Of course, this fails sometimes.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #512

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    Ni types are often analyzing people's hidden intentions/motives.

    Whenever I am having a conversation with someone, I often find myself wondering, "Why did he/she said that? What is their intentions?"
    For example, my boyfriend told me that I am skinny and I should eat more, and I started wondering, "Why did he say that to me? Is it because he has a fetish for fat girls and he doesn't find me attractive and he is trying to mould me into his ideal girl image, or is it because he is concerned about my health?"

    As an Ni type, I rarely take words at face value. Whenever people says something to me, my first reaction is, "Why did he/she say that to me? What is their intentions behind saying those words?"

    And it doesn't matter how long I know them, or how much I trust them, no matter how close someone is to me, I also have this same reaction toward them. I am constantly analyzing everybody around me, constantly analyzing their motives. Even people whom I love and trust, I am also analyzing their intentions all the time.

    I also described Ni as having a tendency to "know" things without knowing why. For example, there was once when this person who is wearing casual clothes walked into the doctor room at the clinic.And then this lady beside me was shocked, she asked me who is he and why is he walking inside the doctor room. Then I told her he is the doctor.
    And bingo! I guessed correctly, he really is the doctor. Then the lady beside me kept pestering me asking me how I knew it. I don't know I knew this either, but I just knew it
    Then there is another time when an acquaintance of mine told me that she is going back to her homeland soon, and she was grinning very happily.
    Then I told her, "You feel happy because your boyfriend is waiting for you in your homeland." And my acquaintance looked very shocked, she asked me, "How did you know?"
    I often find myself knowing things about people without knowing how I knew it.

    As an INFJ who uses Ni-Fe, this is how I use my Ni. My Ni often appear very strongly when it comes to human relationships and reading people etc.
    INTJs are also prone to reading hidden intentions and motives, but their Ni leans more toward impersonal systems rather than human relationships, and this explains why INTJs, along with ENTJs, often end up becoming very successful entrepreneurs, because their Ni always managed to know where is the best location to set up their business, how to attract customers to their business, and how to make the most profit out of it etc. And their Te aids them in manifesting their visions into reality. And this explains why they are often successful entrepreneurs etc.

  3. #513
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
    As an Ni type, I rarely take words at face value. Whenever people says something to me, my first reaction is, "Why did he/she say that to me? What is their intentions behind saying those words?"

    And it doesn't matter how long I know them, or how much I trust them, no matter how close someone is to me, I also have this same reaction toward them. I am constantly analyzing everybody around me, constantly analyzing their motives. Even people whom I love and trust, I am also analyzing their intentions all the time.
    Thanks, I enjoyed your sharing here. And yet, there are types that only use words at face value. There are no intentions. Perhaps aside from just getting along amiably with the environment or communicating a point of fact. Do you believe that? Do any of your conclusions about people reflect that reality, that sometimes, words are just words? They do not mean anything deeper?

    As for @PeaceBaby 's example, I will not see the table as a concept in itself, but I will see it as embodying an idea that is more like a personality. Sure, physically, it's a table, but it can take on a different "attitude" depending on context. Of course, there is also the metaphorical aspect too - the table is less a symbol than able to be used as a parallel for something unrelated on the surface. It annoys the crap out of actual SJs if they can't see the parallels. For NFPs, this tends to come out poetically more than practically, but you also use it to adapt quickly to new contexts.
    lol yes, this is good, I should have thought of that last night too. I agree with this. Inanimate objects have personalities too!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #514
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I especially will do this with repetitive tasks, because I want to shoot myself otherwise. I will do it in different ways to see how much faster/easier I can make it. When I do find a very fast, easy way, then I may repeat that, but I'd be totally open to a new way if it were even less tedious. If there's any resistance to new systems, it's having to learn new details that I find tedious, when I may have felt I just figured out how to cut out the details. If I can learn it fast and it has few tedious details, then I'm all for it.
    x100. In keeping aligned with the values attached to the overall goal and my own personal standards of quality, I will reuse projects, repurpose graphics, chunks of code, employ contractors, multitask mercilessly. I streamline and cut corners wherever possible. There's always a faster, better way and as long as I can be the puppetmaster pulling the strings of it whilst having to do as little of the repetitive work as possible, I am all for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    What I experience with them is refusal to see a different perspective when they've "decided" that a certain one is the reality, and it often appears to be an interpretation that removes responsibility or error on their part.
    Yep on that too. How can such a thing NOT be a choice? (heh, if it's not a choice, that's pretty darn convenient!)

    eta: it's like Ni doms (maybe all Pi doms?) have created a template of themselves (a super-ego structure perhaps?) a paradigm of what they are supposed to be that can function to deflect/filter/absorb? what and how makes an impact on Pi? (Like, some functional stuff is already invisible anyway, but that's not the stuff I mean.) So if you're an INTJ who sees themselves as being very system-efficient or an INFJ who sees themselves as reading intentions well, anything that enters into the perceptual module in opposition to the accepted paradigm is less ... checked, evaluated, considered by Je. It's not thrown into the world for fact-checking. Sometimes it is outright rejected as input not worth analyzing. This kind of amazes me. Maybe it's a sheer volume thing. Too much to process and you've got to accept some tenets as true in order to gain traction on the input?

    I think why this always gets my attention is that Ji desires the most precise, accurate, truthful judgement. It's not about utility, it's about Truth (capital letter here on purpose). Perception that's not utilized or evaluated on equal par with other input lends higher risk to create a falsity of conclusion, especially of the self-delusional kind. idk, Pi as my tertiary is a tricky place, lending credence on occasion to worries not substantiated in the Pe world. iow, tough for me to talk about on par with dom Pi.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #515
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is one major spot where I disagree with Jung and Lenore on all the "access to the unconscious" descriptions. To give them due credit, I would say that the words really don't exist to describe it in the concrete way they describe all the other functions. (Which I would say is true for all the functions, which can be misconstrued because the terms describing them are often too concrete.) Ni isn't "access to the unconscious", it's just an unusual way of looking at the world. For the record, Nardi's descriptions in Neuroscience of Personality are very, very close to my understanding of Ni, and are the best descriptions of Ni in any published form (i.e., outside of forum discussions and the like).

    The "invisible problems" are the ones that are really obvious to Ni doms who are familiar or expert with a system, but no one else sees them. It's like an electrician looking behind a light switch and seeing frayed wiring. Most people don't look behind the light switch, and the light works, so the problem persists until a fire starts, at which point it is blamed on bad wiring after the fact. So I'm not saying it's 100% invisible to non Ni types. Given time and persistence, others can be taught to see the same thing, e.g., "remember to look behind the light switch", but it is never "obvious", and most other types cannot be bothered to look behind light switches, as it's too much work, while it's trivial for Ni doms.
    The term Nardi keeps mentioning for Ni is "Zen-like pattern" (using the "whole brain", p.102) "What is this zen state like? When presented with a problem, the Ni types seek to harness all neocortex regions in order to 'realize' an answer" (in the actual maps he shows, both Ni dom. types ⦅T and F variant⦆ have the most activity in the whole perimeter and the strongest readings in the corners ⦅Fp2, F8, T6, 01⦆, and T2 ⦅left, center⦆). He compares it to the blind men feeling different parts of the elephant, and a "zen-like synchronous state" allows one to reconcile all the different perspectives and arrive at the closest sense of the whole ("the elephant").

    But this is describing, basically, the "unconscious". It (the "whole brain" perspective) is unconscious to everyone else, and likely at least somewhere below consciousness for the Ni user as well. Hence, "zen-like", and something that just "comes up" when they focus (without distractions). They're bringing up something from where else, but the "unconscious". That's why you are describing it as an "unusual way of looking at things".

    But this description does support what I'm coming to understand about Ni. I had forgotten to look it up again. Every time I saw it before; I wasn't sure, because of all the different descriptions of Ni (including ones that invoke "the unconscious", and including his earlier definitions which were often vague or just generalized it as "foreseeing" or "meta-perspective") that had to be sorted through.
    So this explains everything.
    The "too good to be true" sense is definitely similar to what Ni doms do, except to you, it's still this vague hunch that something is wrong. To an Ni dom, it's obvious that something is wrong.

    A recent example: a friend was talking about the Mythbusters episode that covered the bees lifting the laptop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_12L_Dme8Vc is the original video. I watched this video and immediately knew it was fake. But it would take hours for me to explain HOW I knew it was fake, because there are years of experience with physics involved. Those years of experience develop an "intuition" of what is possible with physics. I understand concepts like lift, airflow, fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, chaotic processes and so on. All of these taken together convince me that the video is fake, the primary indicator being that there is no way that the laptop would hover so precisely. Forces have to be exactly in balance for that to work, or there has to be a credible dynamic equilibrium with a feedback mechanism to make it work. Drones and helicopters and harrier jets have a huge amount of engineering behind them to make them hover precisely.

    But to most other people without that expertise, the best they might get is a feeling of "too good to be true".

    Now, Ni does not equal "expertise" per se. Other types can be equally expert with engineering to spot the problem here. This is just an analogy to give you an idea of what it feels like. If you have enough knowledge, you "just know" it's fake, but the knowledge is so esoteric that you can't just way why you know without confusing everyone around you. This is how Ni feels.

    The Ni strength is being good like this with just about any complex system, given a fairly short time to study and understand it, because Ni naturally looks for the key functional components that might dictate failure or success. That's just what it does, without having to try very hard, just as Ti doms can just do logic in their heads without trying too hard, or Fi doms can read an individual's emotional state without trying too hard, or Si doms can recite their knowledge of a topic verbatim without trying too hard. But none of these introverted dominants can explain HOW they do what they do very easily. They just DO IT.
    Ti can determine that that is fake as well. A lot of what you describe sounds more like judgment (knowing how things work by memorizing the rational principles of how they operate).
    I guess you do it in a more perceptive way, and hence, just like in theories, you may quickly dismiss something, where I have to take in the information through Ne first (which looks surely at the object and allows that maybe it's something possible you never knew about), and then process it through Ti, weighing it with all the variables and principles. If this pocess can get it to fit, I might be more likely to believe it's possibl, yet still have that nagging "too good to be true" sense).
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  6. #516
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
    Ni types are often analyzing people's hidden intentions/motives.

    Whenever I am having a conversation with someone, I often find myself wondering, "Why did he/she said that? What is their intentions?"
    For example, my boyfriend told me that I am skinny and I should eat more, and I started wondering, "Why did he say that to me? Is it because he has a fetish for fat girls and he doesn't find me attractive and he is trying to mould me into his ideal girl image, or is it because he is concerned about my health?"

    As an Ni type, I rarely take words at face value. Whenever people says something to me, my first reaction is, "Why did he/she say that to me? What is their intentions behind saying those words?"

    And it doesn't matter how long I know them, or how much I trust them, no matter how close someone is to me, I also have this same reaction toward them. I am constantly analyzing everybody around me, constantly analyzing their motives. Even people whom I love and trust, I am also analyzing their intentions all the time.

    I also described Ni as having a tendency to "know" things without knowing why. For example, there was once when this person who is wearing casual clothes walked into the doctor room at the clinic.And then this lady beside me was shocked, she asked me who is he and why is he walking inside the doctor room. Then I told her he is the doctor.
    And bingo! I guessed correctly, he really is the doctor. Then the lady beside me kept pestering me asking me how I knew it. I don't know I knew this either, but I just knew it
    Then there is another time when an acquaintance of mine told me that she is going back to her homeland soon, and she was grinning very happily.
    Then I told her, "You feel happy because your boyfriend is waiting for you in your homeland." And my acquaintance looked very shocked, she asked me, "How did you know?"
    I often find myself knowing things about people without knowing how I knew it.

    As an INFJ who uses Ni-Fe, this is how I use my Ni. My Ni often appear very strongly when it comes to human relationships and reading people etc.
    INTJs are also prone to reading hidden intentions and motives, but their Ni leans more toward impersonal systems rather than human relationships, and this explains why INTJs, along with ENTJs, often end up becoming very successful entrepreneurs, because their Ni always managed to know where is the best location to set up their business, how to attract customers to their business, and how to make the most profit out of it etc. And their Te aids them in manifesting their visions into reality. And this explains why they are often successful entrepreneurs etc.
    I understand what you are saying and when I was younger I used to read into other people's words moreso than now. Human beings do function on both a conscious and subconscious level in communication and decision making, so we are all capable of motivations that we are not even aware of ourselves.

    Having spent 15 years with someone who functionally communicated at face-value, I've also learned that there is a kind of social contract in words. When someone gives me words I take what they have offered, and if they are hiding something or have a separate meaning, on some level they are responsible to share what they really mean. I also try to do this with people and not hint them to death. If I say I am alright with a decision or action, I try to stay true to my word. Also, if someone tells me something I will take them at their words, and in a way, respect the privacy of their deeper meaning even if I sense it is there.

    After interaction with a few highly intelligent and manipulative people, I've reached a point where I don't even care for words much at all. Human beings get so proud of our words and have even assumed it is proof that we are the only conscious animals (assuming thought requires language). I think that is quite inaccurate. Words are all abstractions of reality, and it is language that allows us to distort our sense of reality. It is language that allows us to justify any action, to manipulate, to confuse, and harm. I much prefer a simple look in the eye, an instinctual body posture. I've been given stunningly beautiful, but absent words, and I've been given rough, but well intended words. Language is artifice, and so the more I can let go of it, rather than reading into language with assumption built upon assumption, the more at peace I am.
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  7. #517
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The term Nardi keeps mentioning for Ni is "Zen-like pattern" (using the "whole brain", p.102) "What is this zen state like? When presented with a problem, the Ni types seek to harness all neocortex regions in order to 'realize' an answer" (in the actual maps he shows, both Ni dom. types ⦅T and F variant⦆ have the most activity in the whole perimeter and the strongest readings in the corners ⦅Fp2, F8, T6, 01⦆, and T2 ⦅left, center⦆). He compares it to the blind men feeling different parts of the elephant, and a "zen-like synchronous state" allows one to reconcile all the different perspectives and arrive at the closest sense of the whole ("the elephant").
    ALL types have the "zen like state", which he prefers to call (these days) an "in the flow" state. What Ni types don't get (like other Ne intuitive types) is the "Christmas tree pattern".

    What makes the "in the flow state" unique for Ni is that Ni types call on it at will, for just about anything, especially solving for the answer to a single question in context. Other types don't do this. Si types show this state when practicing or recalling things. Fi types show this state when listening closely. All types show this when doing something in which they hold expertise. Ni types are "experts" at solving in-context puzzles.

    But this is describing, basically, the "unconscious". It (the "whole brain" perspective) is unconscious to everyone else, and likely at least somewhere below consciousness for the Ni user as well. Hence, "zen-like", and something that just "comes up" when they focus (without distractions). They're bringing up something from where else, but the "unconscious". That's why you are describing it as an "unusual way of looking at things".
    By your reasoning, all memories are bringing up something from the "unconscious" for Si doms, or any act of expertise is "unconscious" for any type. You DO have the original book right? Not just quoted references from online?

    Ti can determine that that is fake as well. A lot of what you describe sounds more like judgment (knowing how things work by memorizing the rational principles of how they operate).
    I guess you do it in a more perceptive way, and hence, just like in theories, you may quickly dismiss something, where I have to take in the information through Ne first (which looks surely at the object and allows that maybe it's something possible you never knew about), and then process it through Ti, weighing it with all the variables and principles. If this pocess can get it to fit, I might be more likely to believe it's possibl, yet still have that nagging "too good to be true" sense).
    Any type with "expertise" can determine that it's fake. My overall point is that is what Ni "feels like" from a personal perspective, except it's about most anything that can be translated into a single in-context question.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #518

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Of all the functions, this is probably the hardest to understand what it means.

    I mean you read a description and it's like "Knowing thins instinctively" and "Experiencing Premonitions" and it's just like WTF? It's hardly an explanation of how a mental function works. Does anyone have a better explanation? I can almost never tell definitively in characters if what they are using is Ne or Ni, since both are abstract idea generators and pattern connectors, supposedly.
    Ne-doms and Ni-doms have 2 distinct patterns of thinking, which is illustrated in a simple question.

    Suppose that you take a class in economics. The lecturer asks what is the best economic system?

    An NP will usually give a very unexpected answer, like "Social Credit".

    An NJ will think: "The professor talks a lot about the need for social justice. People like that lean towards socialism. If I answer what he likes, he'll probably give me a better mark. So I'll say that the answer is socialism." INTJs often call this "context". What they mean, is anything that might indicate a bias in the environment in which the problem is placed, that has nothing to do with solving the objective problem itself, but could help one solve the problem without having to figure out a viable solution.

  9. #519
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    ENTJ NI: TE dom NI auxillary - writing down all the given information, pruning the relevant info(NI), and then solving for the missing variable

    INTJ NI:
    NI(dom) - not having to write down the given information, reading the question and magically knowing which information is relevant almost as if by magic.
    TE(aux)- writing down just enough to solve for the missing variable
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  10. #520
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    ALL types have the "zen like state", which he prefers to call (these days) an "in the flow" state. What Ni types don't get (like other Ne intuitive types) is the "Christmas tree pattern".

    What makes the "in the flow state" unique for Ni is that Ni types call on it at will, for just about anything, especially solving for the answer to a single question in context. Other types don't do this. Si types show this state when practicing or recalling things. Fi types show this state when listening closely. All types show this when doing something in which they hold expertise. Ni types are "experts" at solving in-context puzzles.


    By your reasoning, all memories are bringing up something from the "unconscious" for Si doms, or any act of expertise is "unconscious" for any type. You DO have the original book right? Not just quoted references from online?
    I looked it up in the book.
    But this shows exactly the problem I mentioned regarding the term "unconscious". It's also used for introversion, and that's why it might hold for Si types as well.

    It seems in the orignal Jungian concept, the most "conscious" awareness is external tangible experience. Anything internal, or intangible (and internal is technically intangible for the most part, though internal body sensations aren't) is considered not "conscious", along with any function not developed.
    So it's like
    Se: conscious consciousness
    Si: unconscious consciousness
    Ne: conscious unconsciousness
    Ni: unconscious unconsciousness
    I'm in the process of trying to come up with a better concept of "generic" functions, which are what everyone does regardless of type. Like basic seeing, hearing, etc. (which by itself isn't "using Se"). The undifferentiated functions are all "mixed together" (hence, not differentiated). When you "use" one, you're separating out the particular elements associated with the function, but the other functional elements are still there; just not separated out. Like when Ti comes up with something elegant, and you "like" it. Not true Fi, but is based on the same elements (internal personal valuation).
    So then perhaps "unconscious" impressions might be the generic counterpart to Ni, that is involved in other introverted functions.
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