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  1. #491
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's a pretty good synopsis, Eric.

    I'd say that for Ne, the patterns it sees are "just facts" out there in the real world. Ne doms in particular seem to regard them as objective facts because they can say, "Look! Data!" and while they know that correlation is not causation, they almost cannot help but believe whatever "obvious" point the data appears to be making.

    For Ni, the patterns, as you say, are internal. Just as Si has an internal library of concrete understandings of the world, Ni has an internal library of abstract understandings. These understandings pre-exist the concrete instances to which they might be applied.

    The Ne patterns answer the questions of who/what/where. The Ni patterns answer the questions of how/why. Ne usually sees a singular meaning of the external pattern (via Si's influence, perhaps?) or perhaps no meaning at all ("it's just true"). Ni sees multiple possible meanings, and uses concrete points to eliminate the "possible" meanings that cannot be true. This is how you get the example of Ni in your second post, where the individual appears to apply TOO MUCH meaning to what is there.

    There is of course no answer to "which one is better". The real knowledge to be gleaned here is 1) they look at different problem spaces, asking very different questions, and 2) which problem space has which priorities.
    Hate to shoot off on a tangenet here,uumlau, but I am reminded of the book Galileo's Daughter.
    The Enlightenment / rise of Science (so-called) was not a revolt against religion, but a two fold substitution:
    1) empiricism for authority
    2) similar to the Ne's "who what where" as opposed to Ni's "how why", asking why (cause and effect, mechanics) as opposed to why (teleological or spiritual significance or purpose)
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  2. #492
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Darn. I was hoping that Mole was Chicken.

    Then we'd have Chicken Mole, which is quite yummy.



    Ni, however, is about 58.69 gm/Mole, and not nearly as yummy, as it tastes kind of metallic.
    Sorry for the late response, but...
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  3. #493
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    The best way I can get my head around an intellectual description of Ni is to see it as choosing a perspective, not because its factually the most correct or evident, because it seems the most consistent with some internally sourced archetypes. Ne also chooses a perspective, not which is most evident and certainly not the most factual, but which seems to have the most potential to create something novel and/or something connected to a Ji concept (because these don't exist in a vacuum from the other functions). This is why NPs seem the most disconnected from reality or "absent-minded" or "dreamy" because it appears to be wishful thinking from the outside. Ni looks delusional too, but in the way where someone frames reality to be whatever it is they want it to be, with complete disregard for actual facts, so that no matter an outcome, it is what they predicted, because it can be framed that way. That's sort of like wishful thinking too, but the change is in the internal perspective, whereas with Ne, the possibilities are out there, and it's a matter of you being able to chase them, cultivate them, and create the change outside of yourself. For the Ne type, if the outcome is not turning out to be the potential initially seen, then they abandon and move on, whereas Ni types can stubbornly stick to it and insist it is what they said it would be. The Ni type seems less fickle because of this, but they are really abandoning an internal perspective in favor of a new one which shapes reality as they want it to be (or which gives them a sense of control of its outcomes), and this is as just as fickle, and perhaps which gives them the reputation for suddenly going cold on people or dropping an entire system of belief, as if to start from a blank slate. As a parallel, Fi expresses less than Fe, but when it does, then its in a big way; Ni may do less 180s than Ne, but when it does, then it really throws stuff on its head.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  4. #494
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    The way I think of NI is when you're trying to solve a problem for hours and you finally say, darn I give up and throw up your arms, and then a few hours later you'll be eating a fruit or sitting on the john and suddenly you'll come to an insight on what will solve the problem or come to some crazy outrageous idea for something that is completely unrelated but solves some issue that you're not paid or shouldn't think about. Oh wait, that second one is inferior NE.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  5. #495
    Member corpseparty's Avatar
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    "It's 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife!"

  6. #496
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corpseparty View Post
    "It's 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife!"
    Isn't it Nironic?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #497
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This other blogger, however, notices a lot of different things, and observes it from a totally different angle.
    He suggests that a photo like this (that he saw as part of a series shown in some presentation, apparently) “contains symbolic use of lighting (amazing considering the primitive level of the technology at the time) and spectacular use of mise en scène.
    Using a tangible example like this to examine the functional space is interesting.

    To me, when I read the blogger's description, I sense it has gone astray not because of Ti details (and there's an important one you note) but Fi details. The Fi space that I sense, the subjective internal space from each person, doesn't match up. So although I find the examination of potential symbolism interesting, because it doesn't mesh with the sense of internal truth I get from the people, it somewhat falls flat. Still thought-provoking and interesting though, but I want a truth from it, actual bare truth. How those people felt in that picture bears relevance to the truth. I hate talking about what I feel from each person because I can never prove what I sense to be fully true, and in this instance, all of those people are dead and we will never know what happened at the moment of that photo. Kind of a bummer, in subjectively-subjective land.

    For that photo to embody those qualities above, there had to be intention. Do you think Ni comes to the table with that intention in mind to take a photo like this? Or is intention simply applied like a patina after the fact, identifying subconscious drivers to the construct? (Just general questions there, not specifically directed at you Eric.) I find that presumptuous, just as someone would find me identifying the inner space of the people in that photo presumptuous too.

    And opposingly, sometimes I just want to say, a picture is just a picture. Not much deeper than that.

    From above, you mention:

    "What the INTJ nails a possibility down with would be Te (its practical usefulness); hence, seeming rigidly against something TiNe comes up with, and yet, at the same time, they are the ones in a way being more “open” to certain things."

    Do you think the 'being open' to certain things is due to / about Fi? Can you expand that more? What kind of things do you mean?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #498
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I hadn't presumed what the person's judgment preference was. (Whether INFJ or INTJ). Ti would be for the former, but Fi for the latter (both tertiary, respectively). I would probably have to read more of his stuff to really gather.

    Being "open" refers to "perception", because you're just taking in information, and not "nailing anything down" with a judgment. We normally think of "openness" as being associated with extraverted Perception, represented by a "P". But I was giving a nod to Personality Junkie (and by extension, Socionics, and Jung himself), who make "p" dominant perception, which include the dominant introverted perceptions, or IJ's. We look at openness or closedness in terms of what they display on the outside; hence Myers' useful for interaction J/P scale. But being internally open means when they turn within, they will take whatever their Sensing or iNtuition tells them, and usually not try to force it into a framework, with a judgment function (unless, of course, the tertiary gets involved; usually as a next line of defense).
    Of course, we don't see this; we just see then "closing" things with extraverted judgment. In the case of this blogger, he went with whatever his iNtuition told him, and did not use a lot of ["rational"] judgment at all.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  9. #499
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I hadn't presumed what the person's judgment preference was. (Whether INFJ or INTJ). Ti would be for the former, but Fi for the latter (both tertiary, respectively). I would probably have to read more of his stuff to really gather.

    Being "open" refers to "perception", because you're just taking in information, and not "nailing anything down" with a judgment. We normally think of "openness" as being associated with extraverted Perception, represented by a "P". But I was giving a nod to Personality Junkie (and by extension, Socionics, and Jung himself), who make "p" dominant perception, which include the dominant introverted perceptions, or IJ's. We look at openness or closedness in terms of what they display on the outside; hence Myers' useful for interaction J/P scale. But being internally open means when they turn within, they will take whatever their Sensing or iNtuition tells them, and usually not try to force it into a framework, with a judgment function (unless, of course, the tertiary gets involved; usually as a next line of defense).
    Of course, we don't see this; we just see then "closing" things with extraverted judgment. In the case of this blogger, he went with whatever his iNtuition told him, and did not use a lot of ["rational"] judgment at all.
    Yes, that's all very good. What I'm getting at, is how INJ's find each other closed I guess. So, the things that you as an INTP sense as 'open' mesh (more naturally) with what an INFJ will agree (mol) with. You will (at a higher level of probability) experience an INTJ closed in a similar way (and the only evidence I can provide for that atm are my empirical observations). There's a similar phenomenon in INFP / INTJ interactions (loosely, Fi-Te interactions.) We sense Ti-Fe closed in a different way.

    I was wondering if you had some thoughts as to how to define what you mention as "certain things". What is Ni-Te open to that Ni-Fe is not? And vice-versa?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #500
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    The "certain things" [they are open to]was what I mentioned: "they will take whatever their Sensing or iNtuition tells them, and usually not try to force it into a framework, with a judgment function".
    Ni is "open" to the "internal (and likely unconscious) [and "missing"] elements, that are used as 'alternative possibilities' to guage the situation by." Si is open to the stored tangible experience it references. When dominant, the ego's main world view is this openness to these things, where for a Ji dom. like me wants to close off the internal information after enough is taken in so that Thinking can make its decisions with it.

    Ni-Te and Ni-Fe would be "open" to the same things, because it's the same perception function, and only the judgment is different. All that means is that when turning outward with assessments of situations, one's focus will be more impersonal, and the other more personal.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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