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  1. #41
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Lets say that as a function occurring in a person, intuition is all about the Exploration of Implication. The introverted version is an internal system. Implications within that system are variously extrapolated and refined, and depend on personal whim and on the layout of that inner world.

    That inner world is however wildly flexible. It is expected that all available implications can be, and indeed should be, turned upon their heads. It is not only acceptable, but welcome and exciting, to have the entire system be open to reinterpretation. Indeed, to survive as a system, it must be open to reinterpretation. And the one systematic feature of this constant reinterpretation is a requirement that there exist meaning relationships between each new interpretation and the one or ones it succeeds. This is the process of building the metainterpretation.

    And the meta, well, they say no one looks upon the meta and comes back wholly the same.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #42
    Freyja's Amargith's Avatar
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    Seriously..the more I read about Ni, the more it resembles my Fi-process...or at least part of it
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  3. #43
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Of all the functions, this is probably the hardest to understand what it means.

    I mean you read a description and it's like "Knowing thins instinctively" and "Experiencing Premonitions" and it's just like WTF? It's hardly an explanation of how a mental function works. Does anyone have a better explanation? I can almost never tell definitively in characters if what they are using is Ne or Ni, since both are abstract idea generators and pattern connectors, supposedly.
    Ni is about shifting perspectives. It solves problems by focusing on seemingly simple ways in which they could be different, which outwardly manifests as a strange "knowing" or clarity of how things should be. It is different in outward appearance from Ne in that Ni users are very self-assured about their own view of how things should be. Ne is always looking for options about how things should be different, and always considering different perspectives and changing its mind.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  4. #44
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Seriously..the more I read about Ni, the more it resembles my Fi-process...or at least part of it
    Fi consciously decides if something is good or bad.
    Ni unconsciously links pieces of information together.

    They shouldn't overlap at all. It's true that they're both motivated by the assumptions in the internal experience, but they do very different things.

    I always think of Ni as a giant concept-tree/map. New pieces of information are seen in the light of the concept-tree that has already been thought through. Each instance of Ni is another connection between nodes in the tree. Ne, on the other hand, doesn't spend energy linking new information to past understanding -- instead of a concept tree to ground the new info, the environment is grounding in and of itself. Each piece of input is seen for what it is, then expanded upon metaphorically. Whereas with Ni, each piece of input is seen for how it relates to the internal world, then expanded upon metaphorically.

    I hope that made sense.

  5. #45
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Ni doesn't really link information together -- that's more akin to the Ne process of pattern-finding. What Ni itself does is analyze information by playing with its own perspective of it; as opposed to Ne, which links information to other seemingly unrelated environmental factors, weaving a new emerging pattern out of reality.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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  6. #46
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Ni doesn't really link information together -- that's more akin to the Ne process of pattern-finding. What Ni itself does is analyze information by playing with its own perspective of it; as opposed to Ne, which links information to other seemingly unrelated environmental factors, weaving a new emerging pattern out of reality.
    "playing with its own perspective" can be thought of as changing around connections between nodes/switching schemas, etc.

    They both work by connecting nodes together that weren't connected before. Since Ni feeds on itself, it can go through tens of repetitions and create something that looks like an entirely new schema. But each step is just one connection. Ne probably wouldn't change things around in such a focused way, as each new piece of information resets the environment.

  7. #47
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Descriptions of Ni always seem to be in terms of what it does, moreso than what it is.

    I've come to think of Ni in terms of models or "templates" of situations. These are basically internalized patterns that we retain and identify situations with, rather then external patterns necessarily inherent in the objects themselves.

    So it deals with the archetypal, including a lot of fictional characters, which are themselves often products of universal archetypes (such as stories involving a more serious character, with a silly airheaded one: the "senex" and the "puer" or parent and child figures).

    Ni is often described as dealing with "frameworks", which is a term usually associated with Ti (also making it confusing). But Ti deals with frameworks of judgment, you make decisions with, such as sets of principles. Ni would deal with frameworks of perception, in which you take in new information.
    I would say all four introverted functions have frameworks. Ti is logical frameworks (called "principles"), Fi is ethical frameworks ("values"), Si is concrete frameworks (i.e. memories of how things should be), and Ni is abstract frameworks, such as event templates.

    Beren's "philosophy of life" descriptions for the functions (the little quotes on the top of the page in her book on the functions) hold the key for completely cracking this confusion of Ni with Ne.

    Ne: There are always other perspectives and new meanings to discover
    Ni: There is always a future to realize and a significance to be revealed. "Revealed" basically means "uncovered". So it's a matter of UNcovered versus DIScovered.


    "uncover" or "reveal" implies that something was covered, and now we're reversing this.
    For "discover", the object is not necessarily covered to begin with. It's just not known about, and instead of covering it, so it remains unknown, we're doing the opposite of covering it, and making people aware of it.
    So "discover" reflects Ne's external focus, of meanings that are implicit in the object, yet are being made known to observers by the subject relaying the information. "uncover/reveal" reflects Ni's internal focus, where a subject picks up a significance that has apparently been covered, and now reverses this by applying it to the various objects involved.

    In one of Berens' descriptions of Ni; a person choosing a dog has a "vision" of a dog barking and crying, and then realizes that they should get a dog that didn't mind being alone. This doesn't even have anything to do with any particular singular event being "predicted". It was a template or model of a situation that was referenced to inform a decision for the better, to avoid that template possibly being realized in a future event. The application was clearly an abstract model, and not a hard prediction.

    She also (in an article somewhere) used a forest analogy, where the template would be what the forest was said to be symbolic of. Life's interconnectedness, which includes recycling. Things are created, then destroyed, and new things are created from the, Hence, the replacement of forest with a housing development (possibly with materials made from the forest!) will play out this pattern.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Seriously..the more I read about Ni, the more it resembles my Fi-process...or at least part of it
    People with long attention spans may find the following article interesting regarding Ni and it's Fi properties.

    http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=1912

    I've often proclaimed that INTJs quickly settle into our tertiary functions exactly because of this effect.

  9. #49
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    Ok it's pretty obvious nobody has a damn clue. except Eric B and begrudgingly, Marm, at least she knows what Ni and Ne aren't..

    Therefore I am going to stick with what I ascertained from Jung, Myers + Briggs and Kieresy ..

  10. #50
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Descriptions of Ni always seem to be in terms of what it does, moreso than what it is.

    I've come to think of Ni in terms of models or "templates" of situations. These are basically internalized patterns that we retain and identify situations with, rather then external patterns necessarily inherent in the objects themselves.

    So it deals with the archetypal, including a lot of fictional characters, which are themselves often products of universal archetypes (such as stories involving a more serious character, with a silly airheaded one: the "senex" and the "puer" or parent and child figures).

    Ni is often described as dealing with "frameworks", which is a term usually associated with Ti (also making it confusing). But Ti deals with frameworks of judgment, you make decisions with, such as sets of principles. Ni would deal with frameworks of perception, in which you take in new information.
    I would say all four introverted functions have frameworks. Ti is logical frameworks (called "principles"), Fi is ethical frameworks ("values"), Si is concrete frameworks (i.e. memories of how things should be), and Ni is abstract frameworks, such as event templates.

    Beren's "philosophy of life" descriptions for the functions (the little quotes on the op of the page in her book on the functions) hold the key for completely cracking this confusion of Ni with Ne.


    Ne: There are always other perspectives and new meanings to discover
    Ni: There is always a future to realize and a significance to be revealed. "Revealed" basically means "uncovered". So it's a matter of UNcovered versus DIScovered.


    "uncover" or "reveal" implies that something was covered, and now we're reversing this.
    For "discover", the object is not necessarily covered to begin with. It's just not known about, and instead of covering it, so it remains unknown, we're doing the opposite of covering it, and making people aware of it.
    So "discover" reflects Ne's external focus, of meanings that are implicit in the object, yet are being made known to observers by the subject relaying the information. "uncover/reveal" reflects Ni's internal focus, where a subject picks up a significance that has apparently been covered, and now reverses this by applying it to the various objects involved.

    In one of Berens' descriptions of Ni; a person choosing a dog has a "vision" of a dog barking and crying, and then realizes that they should get a dog that didn't mind being alone. This doesn't even have anything to do with any particular singular event being "predicted". It was a template or model of a situation that was referenced to inform a decision for the better, to avoid that template possibly being realized in a future event. The application was clearly an abstract model, and not a hard prediction.

    She also (in an article somewhere) used a forest analogy, where the template would be what the forest was said to be symbolic of. Life's interconnectedness, which includes recycling. Things are created, then destroyed, and new things are created from the, Hence, the replacement of forest with a housing development (possibly with materials made from the forest!) will play out this pattern.
    This may be the best description of Ni and Ne I've ever seen.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
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