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  1. #451
    is indra's Avatar
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    a personality foremost affixed upon the sense impression of objects

  2. #452
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I just ran across this:



    Se is the cat playing the piano. Ni is what imagines an orchestra that makes sense out of the cat playing the piano. This demonstrates Ni's greatest strength and weakness. Ni is very good at synthesizing data, which is a strength, but is also good at synthesizing data that didn't have any intrinsic meaning in the first place. Ni types need to be careful whether the patterns they spot represent the data before them, or instead represent what the Ni type already had in his/her mind.

    And perhaps it's because I'm a musical person, but I can attest that this is what Ni "feels like" to me, the barest outlines of a melody replay in my mind as a complete symphony.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #453
    can't handcuff the wind Doomsday McFeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post



    Se is the cat playing the piano. Ni is what imagines an orchestra that makes sense out of the cat playing the piano. This demonstrates Ni's greatest strength and weakness. Ni is very good at synthesizing data, which is a strength, but is also good at synthesizing data that didn't have any intrinsic meaning in the first place. Ni types need to be careful whether the patterns they spot represent the data before them, or instead represent what the Ni type already had in his/her mind.
    I think this works as an excellent metaphor for what it's like to experience Ni.

    To expand and further use it to describe the difference between Si and Ni- because I imagine Si experiences something very similar- would it be fair to say that Si dom/aux types gathering afterwards to compare the 'sheet music' or instruments or whatever that surfaced for their own orchestra (i.e. to bounce their subjective understanding of external events off of others) will already be more calibrated to others in their vicinity (e.g. having a similar melody or tempo)? It seems to me like this is something Si dom/aux are able to take for granted more than Ni dom/aux are- that their internal 'orchestra' is playing something similar to others?

    And I agree about Ni types needing to be careful about the patterns. It's important to be able to separate the connections that fire off from the external source of those connections, to know the starting point of those patterns.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #454

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    Sometimes I will get a certain hunch or feeling that something I have observed was brought about by some specific scenario or reason. The explanation will actually feel right to me, and from there I will automatically start looking for evidence that proves my sudden insight. It would take considerably more data to chip away enough of this impression, by contradicting it, for me to be willing or able to disregard this initial hunch.

    Does the above sound in any way like Fi/Ne, as opposed to Ni/Fe?

  5. #455

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would almost reverse Arclight's graphics comparing Ne and Ni.
    I thought the same. I don't really understand Ni all that well, but those arrows should be reversed based on the common descriptions of Ni.

  6. #456

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Frm what I understand of Ni, I don't feel I use it any major capacity, but FiNe sort of mimics it in a way.

    This is where mbti makes my head go in loops. I think that different letter combos can do the same set of actual thinking steps (although maybe they might come from different parts of the brain maybe). One of my fantasies would be to sit in other people's minds for a while. Like one week at a time. Just to know how similar or different we are.

  7. #457
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    This is where mbti makes my head go in loops. I think that different letter combos can do the same set of actual thinking steps (although maybe they might come from different parts of the brain maybe). One of my fantasies would be to sit in other people's minds for a while. Like one week at a time. Just to know how similar or different we are.
    No, it's not the "same set of actual thinking steps". Such similarities are observed because people with different functions arrive at the same results.

    Have you ever had an argument with someone, only to realize that you both really agree about everything, but you just disagree about WHY you are right? That's the different functions in action. Truth is very often an objective constant, thus different people thinking in different ways often arrive at the some objectively true conclusion. But for really complex topics, if you explore how each type is thinking before they arrive at a conclusion, you'll see how differently each one approaches the topic. If you make them talk to each other before coming to a conclusion, they'll all think that they other types are full of shit, even if in the end they all agree about the conclusions.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Have you ever had an argument with someone, only to realize that you both really agree about everything, but you just disagree about WHY you are right? That's the different functions in action. Truth is very often an objective constant, thus different people thinking in different ways often arrive at the some objectively true conclusion. But for really complex topics, if you explore how each type is thinking before they arrive at a conclusion, you'll see how differently each one approaches the topic. If you make them talk to each other before coming to a conclusion, they'll all think that they other types are full of shit, even if in the end they all agree about the conclusions.
    ^^ .... and here you've just accurately described the vast majority of the arguments in my (INFJ-INFP) relationship.

  9. #459
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    Quick example of Ne vs. Ni, as I see them

    Ne first:


    Ne = brainstorming, thinking outside the box. Ne is externally-oriented, so you engage Ne by searching for answers in the outside world, i.e., in the environment around you. Given a tough problem, you let the problem percolate in the back of your mind over the course of the day while you "ping" stuff in the outside world to see if those outside things will give you the answer you need.

    Example: Let's say I'm a teacher and I'm trying to come up with a metaphor to explain to a class tomorrow what happens when someone is mourning the death of a loved one. As I go through my normal day, I see:

    1) A dog burying a bone. That idea has potential, i.e., a theme of letting go and then retrieving a thing we love; that seems vaguely applicable to my problem, but kind of the opposite; maybe if I were to think about it, I might work out the metaphor that I want. But for now I put that idea aside.

    2) A child crying about a kite stuck in a tree. That idea certainly seems more applicable, but if anything it's too direct and close to the subject. I would prefer something a bit more metaphorical. So I put it aside.

    3) Someone clearing underbrush and tearing away chunks of creeping vines. I see the tearing-apart of the underbrush and imagine the underbrush in pain as chunks of vines and creepers are torn away. Bingo! I have my metaphor: personal bonds are emotional tendrils that are painfully broken and torn when someone is taken from us prematurely; mourning is the process of nurturing those torn and broken tendrils until they repair and we are healthy enough to send out new emotional tendrils and form new relationships.

    Now compare Ni.

    Ni = optimization, e.g., playing with a multi-variable math problem to come up with best possible mix of variables that will solve that problem. Ni is internally-oriented, so you engage Ni by pulling problems down into an internal laboratory of your own making and playing out the variables against each other: You put a bunch of variables in a matrix or spider web and then shake the spider web over and over to determine the best arrangement or combination of variables. You keep that up until you've pretty much viewed all the possibilities, and you get that Ni "aha" moment where you decide on the optimal combination and pronounce the problem solved.

    Example: Let's say you're a general in charage of an invading army. Your forces are scattered around the countryside battling a number of various defending enemy forces in separate fights.

    In particular, there is going to be a crucial fight tomorrow: You're going to send unit A against a tough enemy force. Intel has given you a pretty good idea of the make-up and disposition of the enemy force. You know unit A will likely take some casualties in the fight. At 25% casualties, unit A's fighting ability is severely degraded; at 40% casualties, unit A is destroyed. You want to keep unit A intact as a fighting force, but you also need a win; you can't just walk away from the fight. So to help out unit A, you consider siphoning off some troops from unit B, located to the north.

    But unit B has a tough fight of its own ahead at roughly the same time, with roughly the same parameters: Unit B is facing another tough enemy unit, and you have a pretty good idea of the make-up and disposition of that enemy unit as well.

    So you start playing with a multiple-variable formula: What number and type of troops can you shift back and forth between A & B before tomorrow to make both of them strong fighting forces, given what you know about the enemy forces that they'll each be facing? What if you shift B's heavy weaponry over to A, and in return give B a lot of recon and maneuverability from A; would that be a good match for the respective enemy forces that they'll be fighting?

    And so on. You play the fights out in your head, side-by-side, with A & B constituted in different ways, making various allowances for how well the enemy may fight, trying to find the optimal line-up of A & B that will give you maximum force and flexibility against both enemy units. Eventually, having played out the fights in your head a number of different ways, you make the call on the which disposition of forces will result in optimal results for both fights.

    Again, Ni is about "optimization": play with a multi-variable formula to find the optimal arrangement of variables for a given situation.

    Sum-up: Ne looks outward for solutions in the outer world, whereas Ni brings problems inward to an internal laboratory with an eye to playing multiple variables off against each other and finding the "optimal" combination of variables.

    Anyone can use Ne and Ni. For example, when we're taught about about how to play with multi-variable math problems in school (x+6=y/7), we're basically being taught some simple Ni skills. And anyone can engage in Ne "brainstorming" with a little practice; metaphors are universally understood. But for people with Ne or Ni in their top two functions, Ne or Ni will be the "main" way they view the world, crunch numbers, and solve problems.

    Again, that's how I see these two cognitive functions working. YMMV.

  10. #460

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    No, it's not the "same set of actual thinking steps". Such similarities are observed because people with different functions arrive at the same results.

    Maybe it's not the best wording. Maybe I should say the same set of mental "tasks".

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