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Thread: Ni - What the hell is it?

  1. #421
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    Superunknown, god might be interpreted as something like an inner voice and not that crazy even for an atheist like myself: (words supposedly from Socrates, Apologia 31c-32a)
    "Perhaps someone may think it strange that I wander around the city and do so many things giving advice to each one of you, but that I do not have the courage to appear publicly and give advice to the city. The reason for this is something that you have heard me say often, that I feel inside me something divine and supernatural, something that Melitus referred to derisively in his charges. And this, ehich started in my childhood, is a voice which, when its heard, urges me not to do something that I want to do, but it never urges me to do something."
    I can relate this to Ni putting vetos to my Fe (and Se) - "knowing" what's appropriate and not in a given context.

  2. #422
    Senior Member Array Mal12345's Avatar
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    I don't know why this thread was "stickied," or why understanding Ni was singled out for this. Si is also difficult to understand, perhaps more so than Ni.

    Ni is the function of mystical revelation. Historically, Ni types are found with the astrologers, fortune-tellers, and other paranormalists. With the growth of the sciences, Ni doesn't appear as prominently in society as it once did. You still see astrologers and fortune-tellers of course, but in this skeptical age many of them have entered the scientific disciplines while hiding their mental abilities and their beliefs from their peers in order to avoid being outcast. A prime example of this would be astronomer Carl Sagan who, at least two hundred years ago, would have found a very suitable profession as an astrologer or other kind of sooth-teller, prophet, etc. Actually, he did very well for himself considering what an oddball he was.

    Ni-aux adds a holistic methodology to thinking and a dilettantish interest in out-of-the-ordinary ideas.

    Ni-tert brings out the "crank" in the ISFP and ISTP types. They don't care for out-of-the-ordinary concepts, although there may exist a passing fancy with religious and/or supernatural notions. But whatever those may consist of, there is no questioning them, they are held in the mind of those types in a completely dogmatic fashion. Also, as slightly frightening in aspect, they lend a tinge of paranoia to their thinking processes when it comes to influences that are beyond their control. These are monolothic and fearful entities, such as corporations and governments that seem to wield omnipotent and unwavering power that is beyond human comprehension, much like a supernatural entity. When these entities (seem) to bear down on the will of the ISFP or ISTP, these types lash out in uncomprehending and ineffective fear and anger.

    Ni-inferior is most disagreeable for the ESFP and ESTP types, but only intellectually so. They just regard Ni, at best, as interesting but weird, and at worst, laughable or unimportant, the product of Hollywood movies and fruitcakes who believe in nonsense.
    "But you forget that there is one value that is greater than all others: human freedom. Because no matter how perfectly you set the world up for humanity, they will always rebel simply to exert their own selves. You cannot win."

  3. #423
    Seal Down Array Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I don't know why this thread was "stickied," or why understanding Ni was singled out for this. Si is also difficult to understand, perhaps more so than Ni.
    I agree. In my opinion I think Si is the most difficult to understand, define, and misunderstood of all the functions. For some reason it doesn't pique the interest of anyone either, so it's unfortunately ignored. Ni gets more attention because it wrongly seems "mystical", and it's more common of a function in MBTI circles.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  4. #424
    Senior Member Array Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I agree. In my opinion I think Si is the most difficult to understand, define, and misunderstood of all the functions. For some reason it doesn't pique the interest of anyone either, so it's unfortunately ignored. Ni gets more attention because it wrongly seems "mystical", and it's more common of a function in MBTI circles.
    That's true. When Jungian typologists first wrote about the type it would have been considered mystical and still should be, but not in every case. In today's sense, one could better say that Ni is in touch with the mysterious.
    "But you forget that there is one value that is greater than all others: human freedom. Because no matter how perfectly you set the world up for humanity, they will always rebel simply to exert their own selves. You cannot win."

  5. #425
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    A lot of the "Ni = mysterious" comes directly from Jung's writings on introverted intuition. Frankly, I think he just didn't understand it, which is perhaps the best argument for him not being an INxJ himself. By "didn't understand" I don't mean that he couldn't see it and analyze it, but rather that he found it difficult to discuss in concrete terms (like pretty much anyone else), and was stuck using words like "mysterious". I've tried in this thread to make it clear how it isn't all that mysterious, but that it's just a mindset that makes certain truths very obvious, but because they're so obvious, explaining them in terms of some sort of objective derivative logic isn't impossible so much as inapplicable. How do you prove that an apple is an apple? (That's the Se version, which is obvious to everyone. The Ni version is "how do you show that <abstract concept that defies words> is true?"
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    A lot of the "Ni = mysterious" comes directly from Jung's writings on introverted intuition. Frankly, I think he just didn't understand it, which is perhaps the best argument for him not being an INxJ himself. By "didn't understand" I don't mean that he couldn't see it and analyze it, but rather that he found it difficult to discuss in concrete terms (like pretty much anyone else), and was stuck using words like "mysterious". I've tried in this thread to make it clear how it isn't all that mysterious, but that it's just a mindset that makes certain truths very obvious, but because they're so obvious, explaining them in terms of some sort of objective derivative logic isn't impossible so much as inapplicable. How do you prove that an apple is an apple? (That's the Se version, which is obvious to everyone. The Ni version is "how do you show that <abstract concept that defies words> is true?"
    What have you read of Jung's?

    He gives many anecdotes on Ni, and Ni types, and Ni manifest in types that aren't Ni types.

    I would say a lot of "Ni = mysterious" comes from facile assessments of his writings.

  7. #427
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    What have you read of Jung's?

    He gives many anecdotes on Ni, and Ni types, and Ni manifest in types that aren't Ni types.

    I would say a lot of "Ni = mysterious" comes from facile assessments of his writings.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    What have you read of Jung's?
    obligatory characters

  9. #429
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    obligatory characters
    You want to play "dueling sources". I don't. Deal with it.

    From the video, Jung can clearly describe Ni, but he admits that he cannot explain what it "really is". That's the entire source of the "mystery." I endeavor to describe what it "really is", the thought process behind it, not the magical/mystical "oh, I just realized something is true." I can describe an apple, but describing what an apple is "really like" is quite another thing. One can be conveyed by words, the other only by experience. Articulated vs unarticulated knowledge. Jung goes as far as he can with words, but is thus limited by them.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You want to play "dueling sources". I don't. Deal with it.

    From the video, Jung can clearly describe Ni, but he admits that he cannot explain what it "really is". That's the entire source of the "mystery." I endeavor to describe what it "really is", the thought process behind it, not the magical/mystical "oh, I just realized something is true." I can describe an apple, but describing what an apple is "really like" is quite another thing. One can be conveyed by words, the other only by experience. Articulated vs unarticulated knowledge. Jung goes as far as he can with words, but is thus limited by them.
    No, I wanted to know the basis of your claims regarding Jung's 'interpretation' of Ni (given it's no longer Jung's, it's whatever whoever wants it to be.)

    But you wanna play the rational game. You'd think I'd be more into that, as a Ti type...

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