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  1. #31
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    hm. the quick-quote in the new layout does not appear to work for me. edit - huh. and i was shot to the reply screen after attempting to post. curious.


    in any case, i actually completely agree about Ni seeing shortcuts in the system. however, that is not to say Ne does not. N always looks for what is not, thus we will both always look to something beyond the status quo. we will look for what could be (in a timeless sense) and what can be (in a future sense).

    it seems important to me that introverted and extraverted are not just about ourselves. they are about ourselves at a very core level, but we have to extrapolate that a bit, because having a function be introverted means that we also tend to look at the insides of other things - not just ourselves - with that function. as far as i understand it, the difference is that Ni understands how to work the system from within the system. Ne understands how to change the system by getting out of the system. you could say that Ni looks for shortcuts, while Ne looks for loopholes. Ni looks in. Ne looks out. this is not to say that we cannot utilize the other function, of course, but simply what our preference typically is. i would usually rather retool the system. a Ni user may usually prefer to reinterpret it.

    it actually goes perfectly hand-in-hand with the Ji and Je functions too, if you think about it, because the Ne desire to escape/repair is accompanied by the desire for a more ideal (Ti/Fi) system, while the Ni desire to reinterpret/best utilize the system is accompanied by the desire for the most harmonious/effective (Fe/Te) system. to combine opposing pairs - Ji and Ni or Je and Ne - would seem counterproductive (though, i am sure, lead to rather interesting conclusions).

    just my thoughts so far. i agree that Ni and Ne are tricky, especially because it would seem that Ne wants to be everything all at once and Ni wants to be mysterious and elevated... together they obviously would like to be the be-all-end-all... lol...

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    as far as i understand it, the difference is that Ni understands how to work the system from within the system. Ne understands how to change the system by getting out of the system. you could say that Ni looks for shortcuts, while Ne looks for loopholes. Ni looks in. Ne looks out. this is not to say that we cannot utilize the other function, of course, but simply what our preference typically is. i would usually rather retool the system. a Ni user may usually prefer to reinterpret it.

    it actually goes perfectly hand-in-hand with the Ji and Je functions too, if you think about it, because the Ne desire to escape/repair is accompanied by the desire for a more ideal (Ti/Fi) system, while the Ni desire to reinterpret/best utilize the system is accompanied by the desire for the most harmonious/effective (Fe/Te) system.
    Clearest description that I've seen so far. Thank you. YOU WINZ THE INTERNET.

  3. #33
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Wow, this is the same kind of pretentious crap that Oaky implied. I assert that this is NOT Ni. Plenty of people know how to do these things for various reasons. Crazysauce, no way.

    The only pattern I'm seeing here is that Ni doms are so self-absorbed that they falsely believe that they're the only people who question appearances or find ways around the rules.



    [...]Everything else is speculatively self-congratulatory.
    I can understand why you would be upset if you thought I was saying only Ni-doms do those things, but that isn't what I meant. What I meant was simply that that's how I see Ni. Nothing more, nothing less. And to that I would add that, yes, of course, non-"Ni-users" can see through appearances and do the other things I mentioned--just that they're not as prone to do it in the same way that I described. On the upside, non-Ni-users are far better at doing a lot of things that Ni-doms are really bad at.

    Of course, all of this is just theory, anyway. In the natural course of things, it would be extremely abnormal for someone to single out the behaviors we talk about here and give some of them emphasis to the exclusion of others; most people are far more balanced in their function-use than the MBTI is willing to acknowledge, which means that plenty of supposed non-Ni-users are probably very good at the process.

    So to sum it up, I'm not trying to put anyone on a higher level than anyone else, especially not using cognitive process lineups (which I think are a little like horoscopes, in that they draw your attention to characteristics in yourself that only seem to fit the bill so well because of the very fact that you're looking).

    On a side note, why don't you take a shot at your own definition of Ni? The fact that you know what Ni isn't suggests that you have a sense of what it is, however vague that may be.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    I can understand why you would be upset if you thought
    No one is upset. I'm just criticizing your definition.


    I was saying only Ni-doms do those things, but that isn't what I meant. What I meant was simply that that's how I see Ni. Nothing more, nothing less. And to that I would add that, yes, of course, non-"Ni-users" can see through appearances and do the other things I mentioned--just that they're not as prone to do it in the same way that I described. On the upside, non-Ni-users are far better at doing a lot of things that Ni-doms are really bad at.

    Of course, all of this is just theory, anyway. In the natural course of things, it would be extremely abnormal for someone to single out the behaviors we talk about here and give some of them emphasis to the exclusion of others; most people are far more balanced in their function-use than the MBTI is willing to acknowledge, which means that plenty of supposed non-Ni-users are probably very good at the process.

    So to sum it up, I'm not trying to put anyone on a higher level than anyone else, especially not using cognitive process lineups (which I think are a little like horoscopes, in that they draw your attention to characteristics in yourself that only seem to fit the bill so well because of the very fact that you're looking).
    ok

    On a side note, why don't you take a shot at your own definition of Ni? The fact that you know what Ni isn't suggests that you have a sense of what it is, however vague that may be.
    Ni is an unwavering singular vision - that singular vision can be awesome and correct, or it can be paranoid or even batshit insane. And by "vision" I don't mean psychic vision. I mean VISION - like I SAY THIS WILL BE, for example a successful business, a brilliant film, a social solution, the very foundation of Christianity...or Nazi Germany, and religious cults. It gives Ni users a kind of focus (at least if they're using their Fe or Te fully) to manifest something new.

    Ni is also a penetrating intuitive evaluation of the person or situation. It can be scarily spot on - like wow! - or bizarrely out of left field and ...not.

    It's a kind of creativity and imagination that springs from within - I think one of the reasons I recognize myself as an Ne user is because I collect things to make something new, like a collage. Or I see patterns in divergent things or ideas. On the other hand, I think Ni users seem to come up with things that seem PURELY IMAGINATIVE. Like sometimes I feel like Ni users are more creative than me, because I can recognize how I've collected things from other sources and pieced them together into something new. But their creativity can at least appear to be...singularly unique...because it comes from their inner intuition instead of extroverted intuition.

    At least that's my clunky interpretation.

  5. #35
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    The best description I have read thus far is:

    Ni prompts us to have a broad, sweeping change in internal perspective. It "looks past" superficial perception. For instance, if you're working on a team and people are having difficulty solving a problem, Ni may envision a previously unforeseen angle to approach it from.

    Ne prompts us to have a broad, sweeping change in the external environment. It "revolutionizes" that which is perceived. For instance, if climate change is an impending dilemma, Ne may conjure ideas for fixing the overall problem at once.

    The essential difference is that one is introverted and one is extraverted. They're both similar in that they are intuition. They seek patterns, connections, and future implications.

  6. #36

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    Most people forget it is part of a system and by defining all the aspects of the system you can more clearly see the interactions and attributes of the functions. Anyway from an article I wrote a while ago:

    Introverted Intuition - INTJ and INFJ

    Foreseeing implications, transformations, and likely effects

    As ever introverted intuition is an ill defined process. It is an introverted subconcious perceiving process thus leaving most bewildered at its function. It imaginatively creates benchmarks and using iconology determines the similarities in ideas proposing the implications of these ideas and how they can affect the world. It is also sneakily subjective as it lends to a person a censored thought pattern to others around them as the benchmarks and iconology may bear little relation to reality but subtle guide the definition of the introverted intuitive. Over time it is passively enriched by other functions as experience is gained.

    For the INFJ the introverted intuition is supported by extroverted feeling as a way to deal with the need to protect the imaginative and uniquely defined benchmarks of the Ni mindset is reconciled with attempting to gain a mutual understanding of shared external space.

    In contrast the INTJ supports introverted intution by protecting their mindset by logically critiqueing their external environment using thinking to select elements of the environment which suit their inner vision.

  7. #37
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    You know, the more you add to the definitions of the functions, the more you run the risk of confusing or convoluting them by contradicting yourself. You also run the risk of merging the thoughts of one definition with another, which muddles the otherwise crispness of the system. I notice that many of the veteran members here have no qualms about jacking legitimate definitions from online sources to preserve the accuracy of the system. Most of those definitions can be difficult to identify with because they define cognitive functions, not behaviors. Nevertheless, I prefer that people do this rather than just making personal testimonies about their behaviors, their friends' behaviors, or pulling something else out of their ass that just confuses people.

  8. #38
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    No. Think of it this way. Where does Ne gather ideas? In a similar way, where does Se gather details? From the immediate surroundings.

    Where does Ni gather ideas? Where does Si gather details? From the self.

    Ne sees many stuff out there. Ni sees one thing in many ways. Ne manipulates outside information while Ni manipulates inside information. This causes Ni to be defined as "perspective shifting"---just looking at things from another angle (manipulating perception itself). Ni then is unaffected by the pressures of the surrounding causing it to grasp universal or rather "timeless" ideas.

    And if one can look at things in a different way, one, for example can see a whole history just by looking at a face. In other words, symbols, connections, and another forms of "perspective-relationships" are manifested.

    Course, this is only my own understanding but it does make sense. Just the two words, Introvert & Intuition, if defined properly can lead to the more accurate definitions of the whole (the combination of the two words which is Ni).
    This makes sense to me & manages to be simple also.

    Using Ne, I am well aware that I use the external world for inspiration a lot. The tangible is not focused on, but what it implies. It's kind of like the mind sees the invisible layer of the world beneath the tangible/visible/concrete - the underlying processes, concepts, and connections - and it brings forth ideas/possibilities from these without any linear reasoning process or conscious effort. Because of this, it is difficult to be "in the moment" as far as focusing literally on what is right in front of you.

    So I imagine Ni is some reverse of that....finding inspiration in some internal source, and it tends to make the individual appear more focused and composed. I think the confluence (Ni) vs. branching out (Ne) metaphor works pretty well. There is the creepy tendency of Ni people to shift perspective on an external issue and accept it in its new light, without any actual change except how it is viewed. This is disturbing sometimes and can seem delusional. Ne people will instead see many possible ways to explain something and choose that which suits their inner logic/ideals, and that can make them seem delusional. :P
    "Charlotte sometimes dreams a wall around herself. But it's always with love - So much love it looks like everything else. Charlotte Sometimes - So far away, glass sealed and pretty." - The Cure

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Most of those definitions can be difficult to identify with because they define cognitive functions, not behaviors. Nevertheless, I prefer that people do this rather than just making personal testimonies about their behaviors, their friends' behaviors, or pulling something else out of their ass that just confuses people.
    It is very important that people understand that a cognitive function does not a personal behaviour make. It is a system/mode which processes senses and memory. In some ways they seem to categorise the flavour and ordering of an individuals id, ego and superego (to match Jung against Freud).

  10. #40
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Of all the functions, this is probably the hardest to understand what it means.

    I mean you read a description and it's like "Knowing thins instinctively" and "Experiencing Premonitions" and it's just like WTF? It's hardly an explanation of how a mental function works. Does anyone have a better explanation? I can almost never tell definitively in characters if what they are using is Ne or Ni, since both are abstract idea generators and pattern connectors, supposedly.
    Understanding the differance between the two is helped greatly by realising that the functions are motivations, rather than complex thought patterns. To be specific, Ne is a Pe function, which is an urge to explore and experiment with new ideas and how they play out in the real world. To an ENP reading about how to make gun powder is only half the story, producing some for yourself is the attractive bit. If you like, while Se is drawn to experiencing something for what it is, Ne is drawn to experiencing things for what they represent. In this case, the gunpowder is representative of the chemistry that makes it work. It is the visible, real world manifestation of a theoretical idea.

    Ni is a Pi function, which means that is an urge to pause and think through the reason for something. While Si creates an urge to assess what works and what doesn't, Ni's urge is to pause and reflect on the more abstract issue of why things work or work out the way they do. Si urge will seek to assure success by choicing what the user believes is the most reliable information and routes forward. Ni will seek to control the way things work out, often by picking some specific possiible future and trying to make it happen.

    This is why PE and Pi alienate each other. It is difficult to be both spontaneous/experimental/explorative while planning everything out in advance and reflecting and what has already been learnt. The more you raise up one urge, the further the other gets pushed down. When looked atin this fashion, the differance between Pi and Pe gets much easier to understand.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

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