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  1. #311
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    E = P + J
    I = - (P + J)

    Introverted P is a dichotomy of J.
    Vice versa.

    Post intermediate: The quotient turns around.
    Check: Declension order.

  2. #312
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It reminds me a bit of what my INFJ aunt said once; it threw me, as far as typing her (she has been officially typed though...MBTI workshop & all) . She said she is not creative as far as coming up with wholly original ideas, but she's good at perfecting what exists, as in taking an existing system and re-working it internally. To me, this sounded like Si or something, but then I thought about what she really meant & her overall personality (in general terms, not MBTI ones), and I realized that she creates something new within an existing structure. It is wholly original, but it works within the confines by seeing the confines differently. I guess it's the oft-repeated, Ne goes outside the box and Ni works within it by changing perspective on it. I think Ne people just want to tear up what exists & build up from nothing, and Ni people may see that as unnecessary; they just remodel what exists. In this sense, NiJe people can seem more efficient. I think this is why they seem to function better in very SJ environments; their creativity can be appreciated more where the NeJi mindset seems threatening to destroy what exists (because it is!).
    I recognise the kinds of things your aunt said, and I recognise it as being the influence of an extroverted judging function. Extroverted judging imperatives lead one to regard external things as solid or accurate or "true". If it's written somewhere that the world is "a box", then that's something one takes into account. (Or laughs at because there were two other better books or a bunch of experiences that explained the world is a sphere.) And the next step is to wander off internally and reimagine the nature of all things. The extroverted judgments, or the claims found in the extroverted world, can be starting points, or boundary points, but it's not guaranteed they'll be respected. They will be (to a degree) if they form some particular box we wish to explore.

    This exploration is aided by maintaining some boxes as boxes, and as such the exploration is into the meaning of that box with respect to.... um, "everything else"? There is some benefit in accepting curtailment of exploration by conforming it to external world fixed points, but.... [something that doesn't apply to Ni outside a dominant role].

    "The meaning of the box with respect to everything else"... this sounds like what people call "shifting context", quickly changing the terms under (or over) which the box is considered as a box. And the purpose of such change is... well, entertainment, mostly. It's a perception function, not judgment. But what it does is key into useable aspects of interpretations of objects. A lot. Blah blah blah... extroverted judgment priorities seeping into the description again.

    Ni combines perspectives according to subjective criteria. It's like when the stars align. It could be this, it could be that, but add all the coulds together and you get..... some coulds rejected but not via judgment, just disinterest because exploration fails; and some coulds exulted, because they open up connectivity options; and some coulds merged and used as foundations for others. Merged, they move closer to being extroverted judgments. They're accepted as more solid, more real, more... likely? No, not likely. More determined. They align with "reality". Or with the reality as it "will be".

    Pffft. You try making a subjective function sound like it's not talking out of its ass.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #313
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    I've just read Uumalu's analogy for Ni and Si and I think it has actually been very helpful. The idea that Ni recalls based on goals or actions, while Si on objects, seems a very good way to explain the Ni "Drive" that makes them more J-like. Like with INTP and INTJ (This is the easiest for me as it is what I am most familiar with), the INTP has Ne, which isn't terribly direction oriented, and Si, and thus we base our knowledge on stored knowledge and sometimes branch out to use that knowledge for a specific purpose, but it is not the natural inclination, so we tend to be lessgoal oriented. Whereas the INTJ has dominant Ni, whixh means while they place less importance on static information that an Si user would be interested in, they are better inclined to make imaginative ideas of what plan of action to take based on a goal they have in mind, giving them more of a drive in some particular direction.

    So... Ni is a memory recall system of generating ideas based on certain goals and decides based on efficiency.
    JiNe
    Ti | Fi | Ne | Si | Te | Ni | Fe | Se
    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  4. #314
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    @ OrangeAppled: I agree 100%. I've never understood why people call Ni-dominants creative because I've never thought of myself as particularly creative. Now I know why.

  5. #315
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    This quote strikes me as Ni-ish-

    “The more I study mythology and folklore, the more I come to the same
    conclusion that people from every age of this world have come to: myths are the
    most precious treasures bequeathed to us by generations long past. It has become
    very fashionable to look down on mythology and other narratives that feature elements that are seen as “supernatural” or which border on the “irrational” as though they represent failings of human reason in the face of the unknown, but it is my opinion that the true “failing” is found in people who cannot think multi- dimensionally about the things they experience.


    —Robin Artisson

  6. #316
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Just say no to "frameworks".
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #317
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I suspect the fixity people see in Ni and mistake for Si, since fixity is Si's role in an Ne world, is in fact the presence of extroverted judgment. Rather than the speculation being so truly inclined to merely restricted maneuvering, instead judgment is there making the frame on which to hang the speculation. The speculation itself takes rather more the form of .... something else.

    Se and Ni go together, and Si isn't anywhere to be seen. The speculation performed by Ni does NOT need to be founded on data sets or factoids or concrete reliables. The speculation is instead a world in its own right, from time to time hurriedly rolling into line with the world as it is, which alignment allows movement, a run using up breath in the rain along the road down to another point of entry back into the other worldly world, Ni, picking up information along the way.

    Should the above description prove, however unlikely this outcome should be, uninformative.... the speculation performed by introverted intuition knits meanings together. I wish to keep making this claim until someone actually hears it. It isn't a linear collection of whatifs. It's a collection of whatifs that sometimes start again with parts of the earlier whatifs maintained and parts of them discarded. And the selection process is merely one of interest as against disinterest. What if this whatif was whatiffed into this new direction? Would it disclose powerfully descriptive content or would it be mundane and merely confused? And what if these other whatifs were added in, would the scope of the whatif increase or disappear? What if someone actually described what was going on? Would anyone give a damn? Aren't there a built in collection of agendas in every attempt to understand making them into attempts to misunderstand? What if someone gave a damn? What would happen then?

    And those what if questions are themselves speculation in an agenda laden way. I already have some idea of the answers. Therefore the speculation is interesting and grows more informative the wider I can reach out to draw in content. But content from where, I hear you cry, animated with an earnest and upsetting enthusiasm to understand. Why, surely content from inside! Other goddamn things I have speculated upon previously and grown more impressed by, things that have made the sometime runs through the real world that much more meaningful and eye-opening.

    Etc.

    Or not. Whadddya want, I'm just speculating. I make up forms and shapes. And then they come true.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #318
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Just say no to "frameworks".
    tl;dr

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Other goddamn things I have speculated upon previously and grown more impressed by, things that have made the sometime runs through the real world that much more meaningful and eye-opening.
    what are "things"? would connections of Ni contexts be micro-usage of Ne within an Ni dom?

  9. #319
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    tl;dr



    what are "things"?
    Ah, sadly, a good question. That particular language tick--identifying one's subject matter as "Of Things and Stuff"--comes from the extroverted judgment function. "Other things I have goddamn speculated upon previously" would perhaps be more accurately, or at least less collaboratively, be rendered as "other goddamn speculations"--stories, narratives, content holders of some kind that were put through some imaginary paces meant to show up the nature of the content they hold by relating it in one form or another to other content.

    (This inclusion now of words suggesting movement and action is, I presume, an Se infection: an indication of how the speculations are founded, on change and alternation, movement within the world. This perhaps is a theme, but is it defining? One doesn't currently know.)

    In any case, naming Ni-objects as "speculations" is still a deployment of an extroverted judgment function: I'm still rendering Ni as an object filled with other objects related by some mechanism.

    would connections of Ni contexts be micro-usage of Ne within an Ni dom?
    Just say no to "contexts".
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #320
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I think what bothers me most about "contexts" and "frameworks" as tools for understanding what Ni is alll about is the absence of a description of context shift. What is the shift? What's its purpose? If one has contexts, why would one shift them?

    The archetypal Ni question is "What's really going on here?!" So even if it happens that Ni is chock full of contexts and frameworks, it seems likely that at some point an Ni person is going to turn around and look at their understanding of the world and say, "Waaaiiiitttaminute...." It seems like this would turn contexts and frameworks on their heads. And is this a rare occurrence or a defining feature?

    I can't help but notice that extroverted perceiving functions are meant to live in the moment and people using them will, within the context of their kind of perception, seek novelty. There is, it seems to me, a sense of movement, from this point to that point, and turning off into the unknown to explore. So if the actual perceptual contact with the objective world Ni users make is conceived in Se terms, then shift and movement seem natural.... well, themes anyway.

    Connection?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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