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Thread: Ni - What the hell is it?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I don't think so. I think both Ni and Ne do both. The distinction, again, is what the intuition is about.
    From what I have researched I would have to politely disagree. The distinction is the source of the intuition and the direction or directions it goes in.

    How would the subject be of relevance? i.e. What it's "about"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    Intuition in general is the process of gaining a conclusion by understanding a certain focused topic. Understanding what, how and why something is occuring.

    Yes, Ne figures out why something occurs but through that which they first visualise how it came to be. In other words, figuring out the whole process of the event. The thought process works in that what is thought about brings about more things in relation to the subject and that it continues until a judgement factor plays into it for conclusion. They do not dwell into the purpose as usually Ne users tend to find knowing the purpose less useful than knowing the process.

    Ni tends to look at the same focused thing within a different perspective usually with the intention of finding the purpose of that focused thing. For example: An Ni user could look towards someone wearing slick expensive sunglasses as 'an insecure person who uses expensive items to try to increase his/her social status' rather than 'someone who is posh'. Something that would tend be seen as generally positive was changed to negative.
    It amount for large amounts of skepticism and that why compared to Ne, Ni amounts to more definite assumptions.
    The bolded, definitely Ne.

    Well of course people with Ne can have those thoughts about status symbols too - seems like kind of a simplistic example, honestly.

    But I will say when I was a teenager (a lot of times to understand my dom function I have to go back to my extreme youth) that I had friends who seemed a lot more cynical and judge-y of other people's motives for dressing a certain way or being certain way, I guess in a way that took me by surprise at that age, because in my mind (when I was a teen) people should be allowed to express themselves as individuals without judging their innate reasons for doing so ...and I was more inclined to go for the "shiny" in the way that young ENFPs do...if it looks cool, I might want to try it, and others should have the freedom to do the same. My judgements of my peers were usually more about them clearly behaving in a less authentic way or if they were trying to actively hem me into conforming.

    So yeah - my cynicism about why people wear expensive sunglasses probably came into being in my twenties as I developed shadow functions or something.

    I'm confused now, honestly.


    EDIT: I went for a walk and came back, and I've decided that the sunglasses example is really terrible. I'm sorry. I'm even thinking back to my teens and I know I questioned things constantly - and I really don't think that's the difference between Ni/Ne. It seems like the difference between being an adolescent N or SP vs. being an adolescent SJ. Seems to me quite frankly immature SJs would be the least likely to question the motives behind status symbols or ways of dressing. I guess SPs might do something just for the sensation because it looked cool...but NO. NO. Ni doms/aux do not own privelege to thinking that people who drive this kind of car or wear this kind of clothing have an ulterior motive for doing so. It's bullshit. The example from my teens I gave prior was just the people who were more likely to call other people "poseurs" for dressing a certain way vs. me, who thought that my peers should be free to dress and experiment however they wanted, no matter what their motives were. And not all of those assholes who were pretentious about calling other people "poseurs" were Ni users, nor were all the people who were more accepting of others' choices Ne doms like me.

    No sale.

  3. #23
    Occasional Member Array Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    From what I have researched I would have to politely disagree. The distinction is the source of the intuition and the direction or directions it goes in.

    How would the subject be of relevance? i.e. What it's "about"
    The source of the intuition is a good way to think about it. I don't think the directions the intuitions go (I'm pretty sure I know what you mean by this) are actually fundamental to defining the difference, though.

    It looks like Ni goes inward because it starts with all of the assumptions of the inward experience -- so whatever it does from there is still likely to be more relevant to the internal standard. But it isn't technically limited in where it can go, any more than Ne is. The distinction is in the assumptions/inputs/what's being looked at/whatever you want to call it. The base assumption of Ne is "what's going on around me is most important" and the base assumption of Ni is "what's going on in my head is most important". The process being played out given those assumptions is the same. Intuition is basically metaphor -- it links seemingly unrelated concepts, creates assumptions, etc... constantly looking for new ways to think of things. Ni creates new ways of looking at things by mulling over what they already know. Ne creates new ways of looking at things by taking in new data.

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    AKA Nunki Array Polaris's Avatar
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    When dealing with the external world, Ni involves getting perceptually outside of a system, usually in order to take a shortcut or avoid a pitfall that everyone who plays by the rules is oblivious to. You might be wandering through a maze, for example, when it suddenly occurs to you that you don't need to weave your way through the halls and corridors; you can climb over the walls or dig a tunnel under them instead, and reach your goal in a more direct fashion.

    Ni will often see ways to take advantage of the assumptions it detaches from. For example, an Ni user may realize that there is a certain style of speech, a certain carriage, a certain overall way of presenting oneself that creates the mere impression of authority; and that Ni user will by the same stroke learn how to make themselves appear authoritative to others, who for the most part, won't be perceptive enough to question appearances.

    So Ni is essentially about playing the game instead of letting the game play you. This becomes possible only through an attitude of detachment toward the world, an attitude that regards the world as a place made up of people carrying out actions in an uncritical and almost mindless fashion. To the extent that an Ni user continues to develop that sense of detachment, they'll eventually seek a perspective that transcends the world and even conception itself, discarding them both as mere appearances. What is left is Ni at its purest, and linguistically, this purity of intuition can only be described as a kind of silence or nothingness, not because those words are at all accurate but because they don't mean anything: they erase language and lay bare the essence that Ni seeks.

    That essence is the silent truth within us--the clear vision, the lucid knowledge, the "just knowing" that constitutes Ni at its purest. That knowledge may take the form of a certain future, an insight into another person's behavior, or any number of things. What is essential to this knowledge is its irrationality: it doesn't come from anywhere or take an instant to arise, nor does it spring from any line of reasoning.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]
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    Senior Member Array animenagai's Avatar
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    This is something I always come back to. lol I never QUITE fully understand it. More specifically, I have problems differentiating Ni from Ne + Fi/Ti. Is Ni simply more conclusive than Ne + Ti?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    When dealing with the external world, Ni involves getting perceptually outside of a system, usually in order to take a shortcut or avoid a pitfall that everyone who plays by the rules is oblivious to. You might be wandering through a maze, for example, when it suddenly occurs to you that you don't need to weave your way through the halls and corridors; you can climb over the walls or dig a tunnel under them instead, and reach your goal in a more direct fashion.

    Ni will often see ways to take advantage of the assumptions it detaches from. For example, an Ni user may realize that there is a certain style of speech, a certain carriage, a certain overall way of presenting oneself that creates the mere impression of authority; and that Ni user will by the same stroke learn how to make themselves appear authoritative to others, who for the most part, won't be perceptive enough to question appearances.
    Wow, this is the same kind of pretentious crap that Oaky implied. I assert that this is NOT Ni. Plenty of people know how to do these things for various reasons. Crazysauce, no way.

    The only pattern I'm seeing here is that Ni doms are so self-absorbed that they falsely believe that they're the only people who question appearances or find ways around the rules.

    That essence is the silent truth within us--the clear vision, the lucid knowledge, the "just knowing" that constitutes Ni at its purest. That knowledge may take the form of a certain future, an insight into another person's behavior, or any number of things. What is essential to this knowledge is its irrationality: it doesn't come from anywhere or take an instant to arise, nor does it spring from any line of reasoning.
    This is the only acceptable part of this description, the "just knowing." Everything else is speculatively self-congratulatory.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    The bolded, definitely Ne.

    Well of course people with Ne can have those thoughts about status symbols too - seems like kind of a simplistic example, honestly.

    But I will say when I was a teenager (a lot of times to understand my dom function I have to go back to my extreme youth) that I had friends who seemed a lot more cynical and judge-y of other people's motives for dressing a certain way or being certain way, I guess in a way that took me by surprise at that age, because in my mind (when I was a teen) people should be allowed to express themselves as individuals without judging their innate reasons for doing so ...and I was more inclined to go for the "shiny" in the way that young ENFPs do...if it looks cool, I might want to try it, and others should have the freedom to do the same. My judgements of my peers were usually more about them clearly behaving in a less authentic way or if they were trying to actively hem me into conforming.

    So yeah - my cynicism about why people wear expensive sunglasses probably came into being in my twenties as I developed shadow functions or something.

    I'm confused now, honestly.


    EDIT: I went for a walk and came back, and I've decided that the sunglasses example is really terrible. I'm sorry. I'm even thinking back to my teens and I know I questioned things constantly - and I really don't think that's the difference between Ni/Ne. It seems like the difference between being an adolescent N or SP vs. being an adolescent SJ. Seems to me quite frankly immature SJs would be the least likely to question the motives behind status symbols or ways of dressing. I guess SPs might do something just for the sensation because it looked cool...but NO. NO. Ni doms/aux do not own privelege to thinking that people who drive this kind of car or wear this kind of clothing have an ulterior motive for doing so. It's bullshit. The example from my teens I gave prior was just the people who were more likely to call other people "poseurs" for dressing a certain way vs. me, who thought that my peers should be free to dress and experiment however they wanted, no matter what their motives were. And not all of those assholes who were pretentious about calling other people "poseurs" were Ni users, nor were all the people who were more accepting of others' choices Ne doms like me.

    No sale.
    Hmmm, I see. I understand what you mean however my example was supposed to be Ni in a simple form. The capacity the general population would take for use of Ni. And we use all functions so one will always find aspects of every function in the general thought process of society.

    In a more stronger form of Ni with Ni-doms many variables would be taken into account usually in a subconscious fashion as the Ni-dom would usually be used to it he/she wouldn't think twice of the answer unless he/she were taking into account the probability levels of their understandings of how they themselves understand things. The average person may be skeptical and say that that person is wearing sunglasses because he/she is trying to maintain a higher social status. But then there is also a possibility that someone bought it for them as a present. Or that it's a fake brand. Or that they just want something to fit with their clothes. Or that they are experimenting socially on other people by seeing their reactions when wearing it. Or maybe they simply just want proper eye protection from the sun and like the look. And so on... To determine the most probable conclusion one would have to take in more information about the person which could be the clothes, expression, style, body language, location etc. All will be taken in to further produce the most likely outcome of the purpose the person wore such sunglasses. The general society do not usually go so deep in the mind process. Ni users would.
    It is as many calls it 'trying to see the 'truth'' even if the truth is as it's clearly shown which is why you may find some Ni users being 'delusional' when they think about certain things too much.

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    Probably Most Brilliant Array Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    This is something I always come back to. lol I never QUITE fully understand it. More specifically, I have problems differentiating Ni from Ne + Fi/Ti. Is Ni simply more conclusive than Ne + Ti?
    No. Think of it this way. Where does Ne gather ideas? In a similar way, where does Se gather details? From the immediate surroundings.

    Where does Ni gather ideas? Where does Si gather details? From the self.

    Ne sees many stuff out there. Ni sees one thing in many ways. Ne manipulates outside information while Ni manipulates inside information. This causes Ni to be defined as "perspective shifting"---just looking at things from another angle(manipulating perception itself). Ni then is unaffected by the pressures of the surrounding causing it to grasp universal or rather "timeless" ideas.

    And if one can look at things in a different way, one, for example can see a whole history just by looking at a face. In other words, symbols, connections, and another forms of "perspective-relationships" are manifested.


    Course, this is only my own understanding but it does make sense. Just the two words, Introvert & Intuition, if defined properly can lead to the more accurate definitions of the whole (the combination of the two words which is Ni).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    Hmmm, I see. I understand what you mean however my example was supposed to be Ni in a simple form. The capacity the general population would take for use of Ni. And we use all functions so one will always find aspects of every function in the general thought process of society.

    In a more stronger form of Ni with Ni-doms many variables would be taken into account usually in a subconscious fashion as the Ni-dom would usually be used to it he/she wouldn't think twice of the answer unless he/she were taking into account the probability levels of their understandings of how they themselves understand things. The average person may be skeptical and say that that person is wearing sunglasses because he/she is trying to maintain a higher social status. But then there is also a possibility that someone bought it for them as a present. Or that it's a fake brand. Or that they just want something to fit with their clothes. Or that they are experimenting socially on other people by seeing their reactions when wearing it. Or maybe they simply just want proper eye protection from the sun and like the look. And so on... To determine the most probable conclusion one would have to take in more information about the person which could be the clothes, expression, style, body language, location etc. All will be taken in to further produce the most likely outcome of the purpose the person wore such sunglasses. The general society do not usually go so deep in the mind process. Ni users would.
    It is as many calls it 'trying to see the 'truth'' even if the truth is as it's clearly shown which is why you may find some Ni users being 'delusional' when they think about certain things too much.
    Okay. This makes more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

  10. #30
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    hm. the quick-quote in the new layout does not appear to work for me. :/

    in any case, i actually completely agree about Ni seeing shortcuts in the system. however, that is not to say Ne does not.

    as far as i understand it, the difference is that Ni understands how to work the system from within the system. Ne understands how to change the system by getting out of the system. you could say that Ni looks for shortcuts, while Ne looks for loopholes.

    this is not to say that we cannot utilize the other function, of course, but simply what our preference is. i would rather abandon the system, and change it. a Ni user may prefer to reinterpret it.

    that actually goes perfectly hand-in-hand with the Ji and Je functions too, if you think about it, because the Ne desire to escape/repair is accompanied by the desire for a more ideal (Ti/Fi) system, while the Ni desire to reinterpret/best utilize the system is accompanied by the desire for the most harmonious/effective (Fe/Te) system. to combine opposing pairs - Ji and Ni or Je and Ne - would seem counterproductive (though, i am sure, lead to rather interesting conclusions).

    just my thoughts so far. i agree that Ni and Ne are tricky, especially because it would seem that Ne wants to be everything all at once and Ni wants to be mysterious and elevated... together they obviously would like to be the be-all-end-all... lol...

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