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Thread: Ni - What the hell is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stormyapril View Post
    Same result-different path.
    Incorrect, the Si will fuse together what dancing looks like and continually adjust the dance to suit other forms due to internal control when trying to expose it to the external world. Conversely Se will free flow. Much akin to an Ni vs Ne contrast.

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    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    On examples, I think it is extremely difficult to observe Ni in action. You might be able to observe its aftereffects - like Uumlau said - this change in perspective, perhaps someone stating a different view reflecting a broader context. These are some personal examples that might involve Ni:
    @bold: that's enough for me to work with, and all of your examples were great. I am not interested in picking them apart, so I have no questions of them. I do see aspects that have an Ne flavor, especially example 4. That's like having all the pieces of a puzzle in front of you, and to most they appear as a single color, yet you can still quickly assemble the puzzle and provide a solution.

    A gracious thanks for your time to share all that highlander!

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Maybe I'm an exception. For me, there is this jumble of impressions, concepts, information, ideas. thoughts, perspectives, etc. I sometimes have a very hard time making sense of it all. I can't articulate it into words easily. Writing things down helps to crystallize the thinking a lot.

    Is Fi like that?
    In many ways, yes. I won't expand on that here as it's not the venue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We may be attempting to do the almost impossible here, however: to define a function in a vacuum. That's not how we use them. Even our dominant function always works in conjunction with other functions. The interrelation will vary with the strength of the other functions and their appropriateness to the situation (degree to which we are calling upon them).
    @bold: I agree (now and historically) with that, completely. Still, I enjoy the attempts to do so.

    And thanks Coriolis for your examples too ... again, I am not interested in debating anything about them, happy to accept them at face value. It struck me that a couple of your people insights would be similar to ones I might have, but I would have attributed those (for me) to Fi - same conclusion, different path perhaps to get there.



    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Before I've reached 'resolution'/clarity, I must say I think it's similar for me. Just stuff floating around up there. Quite a lot, and rapidly sometimes. Much of it would probably be nebulous impressions - half-formed notions, maybe. The beginnings of something, but just the blip/suggestion of an idea. I can't tell you how much of my existence has been spent doing absolutely nothing -- just sitting in this zoned-out state of what I'll call musing, contemplating, one impression or another popping through my head, sometimes simultaneously, and if I'm really anxious about a specific thing, in that moment it feels like a mess of craziness up there, it's like I 'wait' for things to settle of their own accord or something... letting things sift around and flow around. That's perhaps the most elemental level.

    Then when it becomes more conscious/active, that's where active shifting and looking through different lens and viewpoints and perspectives starts kicking in - being more aware of trying to nab what's coalescing in my mind. Then, on top of that, when I'm actively trying to crack something that I'll have more of a dialogue running in my head, where I'm actually trying to pinpoint specific things and analyze them. Dissect things, etc. But without the analyzation aspect it's kinda what highlander describes, and it's not specific full-formed thoughts or sentences, rather it would be analagous to phrases or complete Impressions - or an instant-flash total full-picture view of something, without the need to have all of the sentences there in my head, the sentences are implied and 'known' based on my already-formed Clarities of other things I've already worked through and that tie into this current thing (because it's rare you're ever starting from scratch, you can grab pieces of previous constructs to incorporate into whatever you're currently musing over)..
    I love this whole evanescent post; thanks cascadeco!

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherC View Post
    Counseling is Ni in serious action.
    HeatherC, it's nice to meet you here. How long have you been a counsellor? It sounds like you offer so much to session, and you sharing your thoughts here is very meaningful to our discussion. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah if it's true, I have Ni too. On functions tests I always score highest on Ne, Ni, Fi, and Fe, not necessarily in that order, but Se is also high.

    I relate to a lot of Ni descriptions.

    *sigh*

    ENFP or ISFP. Whatever.
    Nothing personal, and I don't want to annoy you, but I've thought (as you know, for a long time) ENFJ. And I'm not looking at your behaviour to assess that; just going by how you feel to me. To me, you feel like your E and I are close, N and S closer, as are your J and P. The one that stands up bold is the F. Don't see any closeness there.

    Maybe that's what makes your decision on type so challenging; could it be you don't have as strong a tendency in some areas thus more info seems applicable and not one description encapsulates all that?

    I would LOVE to meet you IRL someday to get all that data from you, see what my opinion might be then.



    Do any parts of the Ni thought processes cascadeco provided, and Z, highlander and U shared resonate with you? Remember, if you are ENFJ, it will be aux and not quite as definable, a little less refined let's say.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, this is how I think. Here's where it gets tricky: if I try to think, my thinking sucks. The information isn't there. I keep pushing the same bits of info around and they just don't fit. I can't do anything with it.

    However, if I don't push, but instead just let the thoughts flow ... if I just "not-think", instead of think ... THEN I get results, and it feels like magic. The ideas/thoughts reorient themselves without my pushing, and suddenly they fit together. Sometimes this self-reorientation is comical, ludicrous, absolutely silly ... but sometimes it's a huge insight that gets me what I need.
    Wonderful .....

    I can get sucked into a miasma of inaction with that approach; the river flows, and I am carried with the river; and nothing happens, nothing changes, life just happens to me. No revelations are found in the waiting. Waiting has always been more of a test of self-discipline than a tool of self-discovery. The possibilities and therefore the answers come when I turn my face back to the world. When I start paddling not against the current, but with the river. When faced with too much stimulus, one can tend to curl up in that boat and lament the speed of the water and feel helpless to change course, yet that is what one must not do for an extended period of time. One must find the calm Fi center through that chaos. Pick up the Ne oars - believe that one can successfully navigate the waterway.

    Marm thinks I'm cool!
    Of course you are!

    This more Ni than Ne. Ne will take lots of disparate events/objects/observations and see "patterns" in them. Often there is a goal of uniting all of these observations into a single pattern, a single theory, that describes all of them. Ni is more about wanting to understand a particular thing in many different ways, comparing perspectives.
    I like to find patterns, but I don't expect everything to necessarily conform. I find patterns interesting, because not everyone seems to see how related the world is ... how similar (yet still unique) in many ways we all really are.

    As Ne, she is pulling ideas in from all over, and synthesizing them into a single concrete understanding, trying to find the unifying truth in all of them. .//.
    Yet Ne glosses all of this over, looking for its version of the "underlying pattern" and gets "benevolent detachment."
    That may have been only a quick impression that would be refined over time.

    Much as Fe looks at behaviour and gives it an instant label - as Fe learns more and perhaps digs deeper into that person, Fe comes to understand more of the individual's pattern and accepts that person as more intricate and detailed thus enhances the library of behavior patterns accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormyapril View Post
    Once in Si, it removes the need to think about what comes next-the subconscious memorized pattern dictates the next step. Thus the dancer becomes one with the dance.
    Yes, very nice. Both uumlau's example and yours thus become a pathway to emotional expression.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #213
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    You are interesting to me Kalach ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Extract a collection of statements to see what connections they spark so you can begin finding out what Ni really is. It is currently mysterious and therefore interesting as an object in the network of all meanings. There's a problem of competing intuitions, though.
    I agree; I am looking for what fits and doesn't fit with the data I already have. Ni does still feel somewhat mysterious to me and I readily admit it. If I were to presume to know everything about Ni, I would be quite the hypocrite. But I will not approach an Ni-dom with the assumption of "knowing", not at all. It's common courtesy. I can only approach from my unique vantage point, and there are already enough folks on the forum who think they know what another's experience is all about.

    I assume Ne works by understanding all input as concrete. Anything coming in amounts to a factoid or a mere present event. Something that happened. The real meaning of that factoid or event, and the real interest of an Ne user in having some concrete input, appears as content tracks, lots and lots of content tracks, that explode out from awareness of the factoid. The relationship of the factoid to Everything appears, and Ne-dom sees that it was good.
    That's not fully resonating with me ... there's nothing linear by how I experience Ne anyway. I would agree Ne is about the concrete, about the real-world per se. But the flashes from Ne come out of the blue, out of the ether as it were. Something I may have been pondering weeks ago will be solved in a flash of insight prompted by a singular piece of real world data. Or I will see several pieces of seemingly unrelated data and fit them together. Just see the patterns between things. Unlike Ni, it doesn't provide inspiration to make a NEW thing, previously unimagined. Any insights of that nature for me revolve around Fi.

    But this waiting that the Ni people are talking about, that's where this practical problem of timing appears. By the time the Vision is ready to be spoken, not only as it been coupled with some utilitarian external world tool and turned about so that only the one aspect that works with the current circumstance is what shows (and what is wanted to be shown), but the actual broader vision that produced the local vision slips back below the surface, and while present and driving, is in a utilitarian sense irrelevant to the immediate context--actually explaining the whole vision is a monumental waste of time--only "action" is needed now.
    I appreciate what you are saying - how do you describe color to a blind man? Perhaps it is fruitless, but still there are connections ... relationships ... that help. I like what's been offered up, it's a glimpse into the abyss.

    You want something in the moment so your preferred content filter can start working? Mine already has been working and the benefit of going back to the beginning isn't apparent, most especially since the products of my content filter don't count as products for your filter, just stray content yet to be examined.
    I have read all your posts, and every post in thread actually. So yes, I want something that appeals to my content filter. When I go to McDonalds and order fries, I hope to get fries. I've asked for fries in thread, and I'm getting pretty close to my request ... and the more that the rest of the Ni doms ping on each other's attempts, the more and more that data increases in reliability and value. I've seen the same thing happen in the Fi threads; one Fi dom with a statement of what Fi is generally becomes drowned out, but 10 Fi doms saying "Yep, that's what Fi is to me" adds credibility, statistical relevance. Fills out more and more of the picture.

    Seeing is passive. That's what it feels like, waiting. One can do things to start the ball rolling, like immerse oneself in the content area, or go out and interact with the people and things involved, or get out a pen and paper and start making notes, but the seeing comes later, during the waiting.
    As I expressed above to uumlau, waiting for me means ... waiting.

    When I was a child, probably 6 or 7, I received a prophetic little card from a motel we stayed at for an overnight trip. It said "Sitting and wishing will not change your fate. The Lord provided the fishing, you have to dig the bait." It resonated even with me then, and over time has proven to be curiously applicable to my life.

    What it feels like is, as pointed out by others, either anxious or entertained. The anxiety is more a product of extroverted judging imperatives. The entertainment is, well, being one with a story that comes and goes and disappears and changes course, is dropped and picked up, and themes and meanings rise up to take control and then slip away to have a rest.
    Yes thank you for that.

    But you're not going to be greeted with friendship and warmth if what you heard me say just now is by doing Ni I merely entered some activity that is now past. What I did was let the meaning of all things begin to appear. I ran through images, turned them over in my head, wasn't satisifed with repetition and instead sought new combinations of entities and devices. I sat still a lot just seeing what new parts came together.
    To use a metaphor, you're trying out various ingredients to see what new creation will be cooked up, what new flavors will be experienced. That is what is sounds like to me. It sounds alive.


    So, how does letting the meaning of all things appear fit into the meaning of all things? What does Ne see of Ni activity if a rule is made that you're not allowed to pretend Ni activity is just some local colour that happened in the past before the real meaning engineers arrived to begin understanding what was going on?
    I don't want to make your Ni Si. I want to feel your Ni come alive for me, thus I can appreciate it more deeply.

    The real reason for not being especially clear about The Vision is that to clarify is to limit. The only value of clarifying the vision right now is in the production of some interim but needed concrete action. At all other times the vision is an ongoing project in which the whole structure is meaningful less in terms of how it should be expressed and much more in terms of what new parts of the vision have arrived and how do they relate to the whole. Can't make no Si out of Ni and expect the Ni to like it.
    I get your message, but we do like it when you Ni-ers deign to visit us from the clouds from time to time ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #214
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    But this waiting that the Ni people are talking about, that's where this practical problem of timing appears. By the time the Vision is ready to be spoken, not only as it been coupled with some utilitarian external world tool and turned about so that only the one aspect that works with the current circumstance is what shows (and what is wanted to be shown), but the actual broader vision that produced the local vision slips back below the surface, and while present and driving, is in a utilitarian sense irrelevant to the immediate context--actually explaining the whole vision is a monumental waste of time--only "action" is needed now.

    Seeing is passive. That's what it feels like, waiting. One can do things to start the ball rolling, like immerse oneself in the content area, or go out and interact with the people and things involved, or get out a pen and paper and start making notes, but the seeing comes later, during the waiting.

    What it feels like is, as pointed out by others, either anxious or entertained. The anxiety is more a product of extroverted judging imperatives. The entertainment is, well, being one with a story that comes and goes and disappears and changes course, is dropped and picked up, and themes and meanings rise up to take control and then slip away to have a rest.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    However, if I don't push, but instead just let the thoughts flow ... if I just "not-think", instead of think ... THEN I get results, and it feels like magic. The ideas/thoughts reorient themselves without my pushing, and suddenly they fit together. Sometimes this self-reorientation is comical, ludicrous, absolutely silly ... but sometimes it's a huge insight that gets me what I need. This is where the judging function comes in, especially the extroverted judging: the judging differentiates the nonsense arrangements from the insightful ones. The new insights are "insightful" precisely because my judging determines them to be so, not because Ni does something magical.
    I would agree re. not pushing. Sometimes it's hard though as if there is anxiety or some sort of time sensitivity, it's easy to want to force the process. Unfortunately it really doesn't happen that way though... the need for just letting all of it happen in its own time is what is necessary. In the interim it can be challenging to explain to others - the 'I don't know' -- at least now. Not knowing without letting the mind play around with everything in whatever time it deems necessary. ha.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    Wonderful .....

    I can get sucked into a miasma of inaction with that approach; the river flows, and I am carried with the river; and nothing happens, nothing changes, life just happens to me. No revelations are found in the waiting. Waiting has always been more of a test of self-discipline than a tool of self-discovery. The possibilities and therefore the answers come when I turn my face back to the world. When I start paddling not against the current, but with the river. When faced with too much stimulus, one can tend to curl up in that boat and lament the speed of the water and feel helpless to change course, yet that is what one must not do for an extended period of time. One must find the calm Fi center through that chaos. Pick up the Ne oars - believe that one can successfully navigate the waterway.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    As I expressed above to uumlau, waiting for me means ... waiting.
    Ah... and for me... waiting = Anticipation. Because I KNOW eventually something will come to me, I'll get that clarity, I'll know what to do, I'll know how to proceed, etc. It's like an inactive active process. I know there will be an end result, and it's my certainty in that knowledge that makes it a bit more of a ?focused? waiting, rather than purely aimless. I know things are happening, hence the anticipation of where I'll find myself at the end. The frustration/anxiety can come into play because the component I don't know is the Time it might take, but I do know it's absolutely necessary, the kicking back.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, this is how I think. Here's where it gets tricky: if I try to think, my thinking sucks. The information isn't there. I keep pushing the same bits of info around and they just don't fit. I can't do anything with it.

    However, if I don't push, but instead just let the thoughts flow ... if I just "not-think", instead of think ... THEN I get results, and it feels like magic. The ideas/thoughts reorient themselves without my pushing, and suddenly they fit together. Sometimes this self-reorientation is comical, ludicrous, absolutely silly ... but sometimes it's a huge insight that gets me what I need. This is where the judging function comes in, especially the extroverted judging: the judging differentiates the nonsense arrangements from the insightful ones. The new insights are "insightful" precisely because my judging determines them to be so, not because Ni does something magical.

    As Ni, I chose that particular line about "Practice not-doing," because that is exactly what I do when I think. When I don't try to think, my thinking falls into place. If I try to think hard, it just doesn't. By "not-thinking," I get my best thinking done. And this attitude works in other aspects of one's life.
    This is how I think as well. Very coherent description of something that is really quite chaotic until that eventual Je evaluation. Learning to let go and to trust this process is a bit like learning to skydive, trusting that one's parachute will indeed open.

  6. #216
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Wonderful .....

    I can get sucked into a miasma of inaction with that approach; the river flows, and I am carried with the river; and nothing happens, nothing changes, life just happens to me. No revelations are found in the waiting. Waiting has always been more of a test of self-discipline than a tool of self-discovery. The possibilities and therefore the answers come when I turn my face back to the world. When I start paddling not against the current, but with the river. When faced with too much stimulus, one can tend to curl up in that boat and lament the speed of the water and feel helpless to change course, yet that is what one must not do for an extended period of time. One must find the calm Fi center through that chaos. Pick up the Ne oars - believe that one can successfully navigate the waterway.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    As I expressed above to uumlau, waiting for me means ... waiting.

    When I was a child, probably 6 or 7, I received a prophetic little card from a motel we stayed at for an overnight trip. It said "Sitting and wishing will not change your fate. The Lord provided the fishing, you have to dig the bait." It resonated even with me then, and over time has proven to be curiously applicable to my life.

    ...

    I don't want to make your Ni Si. I want to feel your Ni come alive for me, thus I can appreciate it more deeply.
    For Ni, Te/Fe is what gets our butts out the door and working on stuff. The dictum you relate about fishing is about e vs i.

    So let me re-metaphor phor you.

    Ni is the continuous thought stream. Underlying currents that indirectly contain everything we've ever observed or thought.

    To fish, I could use a pole with bait, or I could use a spear, or even my hands, but none of these is close to what Te does. For me, Te is a fishing net. The fish that are too small pass through the net, the big fish are caught. I just need to wait.

    Then when I've caught a few fish, I don't need all of them, just one. So I look for the best fish among the several I've caught. I may have also caught some sticks or rocks or ducks, determine that they're "nonsense" in terms of my Te search for fish, and toss them out without thinking about it.

    So, your style of waiting has you drifting with your thoughts, which results in no action because Ne is your objective process, which you use to paddle through them. My style of waiting is to "let the river do all the work." I simply sort out what is in the river. My net is to simply frame the question and let it settle in my mind.

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    Vaguely Precise Array Seymour's Avatar
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    It does seem like Ni requires rich but fallow ground in order to function well. The descriptions remind me of the sudden crystallization of a super-saturated liquid, or a lightning strike between already charged regions. While the process of Ni may seem sudden and inexplicable, the period leading up to the flash of understanding may be long. While one can create favorable conditions, it generally cannot be forced directly. Given the right conditions and time, the alignment of random data into pattern and insight seems to happen on its own.

    While not literally true, that aspect of Ni reminds me a bit of the Ursula Le Guin quote: “'For a word to be spoken,' Ged answered slowly, 'there must be silence. Before, and after.'"

    (not Ni-enabled, but couldn't resist sharing the random associations)

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    Member Array stormyapril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Incorrect, the Si will fuse together what dancing looks like and continually adjust the dance to suit other forms due to internal control when trying to expose it to the external world. Conversely Se will free flow. Much akin to an Ni vs Ne contrast.
    I would suggest that an Ne dom remembers patterns via Si recollections. ENFP's say "I have seen this pattern before...."

    As long as the dance is a known pattern, visceral inferior Si seems to recall the sensation of the pattern....Ne then adds flourishes upon the memorized pattern. the enfp moves without thought-unless a dog runs across the stage and interrupts the dance. Or even worse....you change the steps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    It does seem like Ni requires rich but fallow ground in order to function well. The descriptions remind me of the sudden crystallization of a super-saturated liquid, or a lightning strike between already charged regions. While the process of Ni may seem sudden and inexplicable, the period leading up to the flash of understanding may be long. While one can create favorable conditions, it generally cannot be forced directly. Given the right conditions and time, the alignment of random data into pattern and insight seems to happen on its own.

    While not literally true, that aspect of Ni reminds me a bit of the Ursula Le Guin quote: “'For a word to be spoken,' Ged answered slowly, 'there must be silence. Before, and after.'"

    (not Ni-enabled, but couldn't resist sharing the random associations)
    This was actually phenomenal, Seymour.

    Very much in line with how my mind works.

    Just a week or two ago, in describing to my girlfriend why I and other Ni doms sometimes have a somewhat "blank" look on our face, I said it was because my thoughts on the matter are still forming.

    The stuff inside my head has still not congealed into any solid substance, it hasn't yet reached that crystallized state, the lightning has not yet struck. But then, all of a sudden, *boom* it's there. And I've got something in mind.

    Any pushing or forcing, either by ourselves or by external sources, tends to cause whatever had been forming to now be perturbed and, in general, creates some perversion (in my case, often tinged with resentment and anger for having its natural process be disturbed) of what had already been forming, that is now less insightful and valuable then what had been forming in the first place.

    I believe this explanation came in the context of asking her to just let me finish figuring out what it is that I had to say, with the necessary time and silence in order to do so.

    This, of course, is only when I'm letting Ni drive the car.

    If I want to to whip back with some quick response, or make sure I "have a look on my face", I can let Te or a TeSe loop do the driving, and they will be up for the task.
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    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This was actually phenomenal, Seymour.

    Very much in line with how my mind works.

    Just a week or two ago, in describing to my girlfriend why I (and other Ni doms) sometimes have a somewhat "blank" look on my face, I said it was because my thoughts on the matter are still forming.The stuff inside my head has still not congealed into any solid substance, it hasn't yet reached that crystallized state, the lightning has not yet struck. But then, all of a sudden, *boom* it's there. And I've got something in mind.
    That resonates SO much.
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