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Thread: Ni - What the hell is it?

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    If you distrust the system, then why are you even striving to apply them to yourself in the first place?
    Because I'm still trying to make sense of it all.

    I never said any particular theory was correct. Most make sense in their own right. The problem with your approach is that you're trying to mesh them together.
    That's how I think. I refuse to think there's absolute truth in one theory, meshing things together and trying to look at what is common inside of them is what works for me. I lean more toward function theory, but I never claimed to be an expert.

    A broad set of behaviors isn't compatible with a simple set of emotion or cognition. You're expecting someone to determine your MBTI type by witnessing your behavior online. The best way for you to determine your type is through self-evidence. Ask yourself what you prefer, making impersonal or personal decisions? Using abstract or concrete information? Occupying the inner world or outer world? etc, etc.
    You know what? I think other people's observations matter. That's where you and I differ, and I really don't get your attitude. That's what's not helpful - it's not your information, but the smug "I'm with Invisible Jim in my self-congratulating" tone with which it's delivered ..."OH ITS SAD"...you sound like fucking Solitary Walker looking down on all the folk typology peasants.

    Go jerk off or something, pop a prozac, go away.

  2. #202
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    :rolli: I tried.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Because I'm still trying to make sense of it all.

    That's how I think. I refuse to think there's absolute truth in one theory, meshing things together and trying to look at what is common inside of them is what works for me. I lean more toward function theory, but I never claimed to be an expert.

    You know what? I think other people's observations matter. That's where you and I differ, and I really don't get your attitude. That's what's not helpful - it's not your information, but the smug "I'm with Invisible Jim in my self-congratulating" tone with which it's delivered ..."OH ITS SAD"...you sound like fucking Solitary Walker looking down on all the folk typology peasants.

    Go jerk off or something, pop a prozac, go away.
    Okay, I can see the origin of your misunderstanding; you are appreciating the unique nature of each function but you aren't comparing it against the other functions to determine which cognitive attributes are unique to each. To assist you in this, I recommend you read my copypasta on http://www.personalitynation.com/jun...tions-you.html. I think it will be useful to you in seeing how I view each function as having individual attributes which, only when linked together (in this case the first two functions) give you a pretty good benchmark for the cognitive nature of people.

    I think you understand the problem better than you (or we) think, but you are getting a bit confused about what is a persons individual ego, individual cognitive functions and the interaction between cognitive functions.

    Do note that what is on that page is entirely my opinion. I don't expect you to agree and I would be delighted if you could challenge it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Okay, I can see the origin of your misunderstanding; you are appreciating the unique nature of each function but you aren't comparing it against the other functions to determine which cognitive attributes are unique to each. To assist you in this, I recommend you read my copypasta on http://www.personalitynation.com/jun...tions-you.html. I think it will be useful to you in seeing how I view each function as having individual attributes which, only when linked together (in this case the first two functions) give you a pretty good benchmark for the cognitive nature of people.

    I think you understand the problem better than you (or we) think, but you are getting a bit confused about what is a persons individual ego, individual cognitive functions and the interaction between cognitive functions.

    Do note that what is on that page is entirely my opinion. I don't expect you to agree and I would be delighted if you could challenge it.
    Ok. It takes me a while to process things. I had to think about what Kalach said, and I'm still considering what you said on the linked page. I can't dispute it at this juncture, but that doesn't necessarily mean I won't have something to say about it later.

    Thing is...I read your descriptions for Fi in relation to both Ne and Se for INFP and ISFP and related to both. The words "triggers immediate outrage" popped out at me from the ISFP definition, but so did Ne's ability to consider viewpoints that others think are wrong.

  5. #205
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Ok. It takes me a while to process things. I had to think about what Kalach said, and I'm still considering what you said on the linked page. I can't dispute it at this juncture, but that doesn't necessarily mean I won't have something to say about it later.

    Thing is...I read your descriptions for Fi in relation to both Ne and Se for INFP and ISFP and related to both. The words "triggers immediate outrage" popped out at me from the ISFP definition, but so did Ne's ability to consider viewpoints that others think are wrong.
    Tip: you are using your cognitive preferences "right now ^". If you need more information before making a choice, suggests P. (Or suggests judgment function conflict between you and the advisor--more on that later.) If you need information that prompts suggestion of possibilities, suggests N. If you'd really prefer people stop talking vague nonsense and start showing you pictures or playing music or something because those things by themselves would be more fun, suggests S. And then there's the question of which presentation styles you relate to. Is it easier to grasp things self-proclaimed TJs write, or do TPs make more sense more of the time. Suggests whether you're working with Fe/Ti or Fi/Te.

    Etc.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Tip: you are using your cognitive preferences "right now ^". If you need more information before making a choice, suggests P.
    ah yes this makes sense, and it's something that had kind of occurred to me a couple of weeks ago for a more personal topic but still the same thing...that my processing speed would suggest more of a P mindset...

    (Or suggests judgment function conflict between you and the advisor--more on that later.) If you need information that prompts suggestion of possibilities, suggests N. If you'd really prefer people stop talking vague nonsense and start showing you pictures or playing music or something because those things by themselves would be more fun, suggests S.
    ah well I generally want more info so that suggests N I suppose


    though I feel a need to add this addendum that was a response of mine to someone else another thread: "Part of the reason why I find it so obnoxious is because I don't think my type of thinking is quite as abstract as yours (I SUCK AT ALGEBRA) and I feel like you're making fun of people who aren't as abstract as you are"

    I don't know if that means I'm still N but *less N* than some others, or just that my way of thinking is Ne instead of Ni. Or if it has nothing to do with being N or S, or I'm just a big huge feeler that way.

    I mean...like when Tater said I don't want to reason things out for myself ... I was annoyed with that because I think about this stuff a lot, it's not lack of reasoning, and very well could be lack of understanding. Cognition is pretty abstract as compared to observable behavior. Of course I question motives myself, but going deep down into processes that are deeper than life philosophy or world view...it's a bit difficult to grasp, kind of like thinking about how big the universe actually is, or about eternity.

    And then there's the question of which presentation styles you relate to. Is it easier to grasp things self-proclaimed TJs write, or do TPs make more sense more of the time. Suggests whether you're working with Fe/Ti or Fi/Te.

    Etc.
    I think TJs usually explain things better ... not always, but yeah

  7. #207
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Default Marmalade Sunrise - What the hell is she?

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    ah yes this makes sense, and it's something that had kind of occurred to me a couple of weeks ago for a more personal topic but still the same thing...that my processing speed would suggest more of a P mindset...
    P means slower to be content with conclusions reached, not slower per se. The perceiver part of the P priority holds that just around the corner there will be another piece of really interesting information so it's better to hold off finally choosing until we've seen that piece too.

    ah well I generally want more info so that suggests N I suppose
    If you generally want more info on the connection between things, then it suggests N. If you want more of the speed and colour and shape of things, then (assuming we're still talking P here) suggests S.

    though I feel a need to add this addendum that was a response of mine to someone else another thread: "Part of the reason why I find it so obnoxious is because I don't think my type of thinking is quite as abstract as yours (I SUCK AT ALGEBRA) and I feel like you're making fun of people who aren't as abstract as you are"

    I don't know if that means I'm still N but *less N* than some others, or just that my way of thinking is Ne instead of Ni. Or if it has nothing to do with being N or S, or I'm just a big huge feeler that way.
    Says little about N. Suggests you take as a priority the existence of feelings.

    I mean...like when Tater said I don't want to reason things out for myself ... I was annoyed with that because I think about this stuff a lot, it's not lack of reasoning, and very well could be lack of understanding. Cognition is pretty abstract as compared to observable behavior. Of course I question motives myself, but going deep down into processes that are deeper than life philosophy or world view...it's a bit difficult to grasp, kind of like thinking about how big the universe actually is, or about eternity.
    So... not an Ni user then?




    I crack me up.





    There are lots of reasons for being unwilling or unable to commit to a type assertion. Being P (and therefore not wanting to decide too soon) is one. Being F (and therefore placing emphasis on individuals as they present themselves rather than emphasis on impersonal mechanism behind people) is another. Being E is actually another reason for avoiding typological assertions too, on the one hand to assert your individuality (your i side) and on the other to actually reflect the majority opinion, which is that typology is bunk.







    This is my vision. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My vision is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My vision, without me, is useless. Without my vision, I am useless. I must make my vision true. I must see further than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must see him before he sees me. I won't, however, for I have inferior Se.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I still wonder, as peacebaby does, what is actually going through your minds?
    Answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    ... I can't tell you how much of my existence has been spent doing absolutely nothing -- just sitting in this zoned-out state of what I'll call musing, contemplating, one impression or another popping through my head, sometimes simultaneously, and if I'm really anxious about a specific thing, in that moment it feels like a mess of craziness up there, it's like I 'wait' for things to settle of their own accord or something... letting things sift around and flow around.
    Affirmation of Answer 1:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Does this resonate strongly with other Ni doms?

    I know it does for me: regarding both my own mind, and the external world...
    Yes, this is how I think. Here's where it gets tricky: if I try to think, my thinking sucks. The information isn't there. I keep pushing the same bits of info around and they just don't fit. I can't do anything with it.

    However, if I don't push, but instead just let the thoughts flow ... if I just "not-think", instead of think ... THEN I get results, and it feels like magic. The ideas/thoughts reorient themselves without my pushing, and suddenly they fit together. Sometimes this self-reorientation is comical, ludicrous, absolutely silly ... but sometimes it's a huge insight that gets me what I need. This is where the judging function comes in, especially the extroverted judging: the judging differentiates the nonsense arrangements from the insightful ones. The new insights are "insightful" precisely because my judging determines them to be so, not because Ni does something magical.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well why don't you be a cool INTJ like Edgar or Uumlau and actually explain it to me.
    Marm thinks I'm cool!

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    That's how I think. I refuse to think there's absolute truth in one theory, meshing things together and trying to look at what is common inside of them is what works for me. I lean more toward function theory, but I never claimed to be an expert.
    This more Ni than Ne. Ne will take lots of disparate events/objects/observations and see "patterns" in them. Often there is a goal of uniting all of these observations into a single pattern, a single theory, that describes all of them. Ni is more about wanting to understand a particular thing in many different ways, comparing perspectives.

    You know what? I think other people's observations matter.
    Se

    Go jerk off or something, pop a prozac, go away.
    More Se


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    ah well I generally want more info so that suggests N I suppose
    I'd disagree. This continuous pretension that having a curious mind (thus implying an intelligent mind) implies N, and that it's converse implies S is nonsense.

    The S vs N dilemma is rather clear in you, Marm, because on one level, you are very interested in the abstract, but at the same time you'd like to cut through the bullshit and have a concrete explanation. This really feels like Se vs Ni, to me.

    As you continue to relate, here:
    though I feel a need to add this addendum that was a response of mine to someone else another thread: "Part of the reason why I find it so obnoxious is because I don't think my type of thinking is quite as abstract as yours (I SUCK AT ALGEBRA) and I feel like you're making fun of people who aren't as abstract as you are"

    I don't know if that means I'm still N but *less N* than some others, or just that my way of thinking is Ne instead of Ni. Or if it has nothing to do with being N or S, or I'm just a big huge feeler that way.

    I mean...like when Tater said I don't want to reason things out for myself ... I was annoyed with that because I think about this stuff a lot, it's not lack of reasoning, and very well could be lack of understanding. Cognition is pretty abstract as compared to observable behavior. Of course I question motives myself, but going deep down into processes that are deeper than life philosophy or world view...it's a bit difficult to grasp, kind of like thinking about how big the universe actually is, or about eternity.
    Exactly. Translating abstract concepts into concrete concepts is difficult in the extreme. The whole concept of infinity is a good example. In abstract terms, infinity is very simple: it's an unbounded set. It's just a way of saying "goes on forever." No more, no less. Translating it into Se terms is where it breaks down, because then infinity starts meaning nonsensical things, like "infinity is the highest number" or "parallel lines intersect" or "really big, no, I mean really really big".

    I'm not trying to make fun, here, but rather trying to give specific examples of turning a basic abstract concept into a concrete concept. The abstract concept needs to stay in the abstract space, the concrete concept needs to stay in the concrete space. So if we take the meaning of "infinity" w/r to Ni, and translate it into Se, it doesn't become "really really big", but rather it becomes, "OK, I don't need to worry about reaching the end of this any time soon," or "Hmm, I just did some bad math, because it says I should have infinite money, now." Similarly, the Se concept of "this seems to go on forever" translates into the Ni-abstraction of "Hmm, this may very well be infinite, unbounded."

    As for Ne vs Ni, let me relate a long discussion I had last night IRL with an ENFP of our mutual acquaintance. She was busily digesting the contents of several books, including "A Course In Miracles," "The Four Agreements" and the "Tao Te Ching." Curious, I pointed out a section of the Tao and asked what she thought. I expected she'd take 15-30 minutes going over it and tell me what thoughts the text invoked.

    Nope.

    She read it in about 60 seconds and said, "Benevolent detachment."

    I just looked at her funny. "Um, sort of, but there's a lot more to it, than that."

    "It's all just benevolent detachment. You see it here, and in the Four Agreements and in Buddhism and several other religions. You just split off yourself from the real world, and then you see the truth."

    "Um, no. It really isn't just that," I replied. "There are so many ideas here, in this section of the Tao. For example, the 'Practice not-doing, and everything will fall into place.' What does that mean to you?"

    "Benevolent detachment."

    As Ne, she is pulling ideas in from all over, and synthesizing them into a single concrete understanding, trying to find the unifying truth in all of them.

    As Ni, I chose that particular line about "Practice not-doing," because that is exactly what I do when I think. When I don't try to think, my thinking falls into place. If I try to think hard, it just doesn't. By "not-thinking," I get my best thinking done. And this attitude works in other aspects of one's life.

    E.g., a dancer dances (Se), but doesn't actually "think" about dancing, doesn't actually "try" to dance, but she just dances, seemingly effortlessly; the dancer is the dance. If she were trying to dance, or thinking hard about dancing, you'd see the flaws. It would look wrong. Instead, she reaches a level of understanding/skill that she is "not-dancing", and thus dances very well. (I point out this Se example to show how it is quite compatible with the Ni perspective.)

    Yet Ne glosses all of this over, looking for its version of the "underlying pattern" and gets "benevolent detachment."

    I hope this helps you with your self-insights, Marm, and gives the rest of your a better understanding of what Ni "really is."

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    ah yes this makes sense, and it's something that had kind of occurred to me a couple of weeks ago for a more personal topic but still the same thing...that my processing speed would suggest more of a P mindset...

    ah well I generally want more info so that suggests N I suppose

    though I feel a need to add this addendum that was a response of mine to someone else another thread: "Part of the reason why I find it so obnoxious is because I don't think my type of thinking is quite as abstract as yours (I SUCK AT ALGEBRA) and I feel like you're making fun of people who aren't as abstract as you are"

    I don't know if that means I'm still N but *less N* than some others, or just that my way of thinking is Ne instead of Ni. Or if it has nothing to do with being N or S, or I'm just a big huge feeler that way.

    I mean...like when Tater said I don't want to reason things out for myself ... I was annoyed with that because I think about this stuff a lot, it's not lack of reasoning, and very well could be lack of understanding. Cognition is pretty abstract as compared to observable behavior. Of course I question motives myself, but going deep down into processes that are deeper than life philosophy or world view...it's a bit difficult to grasp, kind of like thinking about how big the universe actually is, or about eternity.

    I think TJs usually explain things better ... not always, but yeah
    I would suggest you use far more Si than most ENFPs. It makes you more introverted than most. You might also find you almost balance Ne with Si-thus your innate interest in pursuing the abstract possibilities simply for the sake of landscape extension-Ne, is countered by a cognitive impetus to preserve what you understand to be true-Si. Mid-strong judging functions, especially the Te, might come across as wanting to reach a decision quickly, yet later be open to changes in that decision openly due to new Ne content...but you also stick very strongly to what you believe to be true in spite of others lack of approval-a strong Fi.

    Just my 2c.

  10. #210
    Member Array stormyapril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    "Benevolent detachment."

    As Ne, she is pulling ideas in from all over, and synthesizing them into a single concrete understanding, trying to find the unifying truth in all of them.

    As Ni, I chose that particular line about "Practice not-doing," because that is exactly what I do when I think. When I don't try to think, my thinking falls into place. If I try to think hard, it just doesn't. By "not-thinking," I get my best thinking done. And this attitude works in other aspects of one's life.

    E.g., a dancer dances (Se), but doesn't actually "think" about dancing, doesn't actually "try" to dance, but she just dances, seemingly effortlessly; the dancer is the dance. If she were trying to dance, or thinking hard about dancing, you'd see the flaws. It would look wrong. Instead, she reaches a level of understanding/skill that she is "not-dancing", and thus dances very well. (I point out this Se example to show how it is quite compatible with the Ni perspective.)
    Ne patterns result in an end universal Si generalized rule. The ENFP will dance using Si, not Se. Ne patterns of movement practiced over and over and over again become Si muscle memory-Si generalized rules to dance by. Much like Ni, the Si will never be seen past the surface-yet it lies underneath.

    Once in Si, it removes the need to think about what comes next-the subconscious memorized pattern dictates the next step. Thus the dancer becomes one with the dance.

    Same result-different path.

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