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Thread: Ni - What the hell is it?

  1. #151
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've known plenty of INFJs to promote the mystical "just knowing" nature of Ni, some of whom think they're INTJs, so they're a special case of Ni/Ti emphasis.
    Really? I disagree; I think the INFJ's who promote the mystical are locked more into just Ni and actually lack Ti or much Fe/Se for that matter. To me the Ti adds an element of detached self critique.


    I would say that the more "disconnected" Ni is from the other functions, especially the extroverted ones, the more it seems "mystical," especially to oneself.
    I do agree with this.

    Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.
    Totally, to the bolded. I am extremely agitated until I've resolved whatever it is in my head and made sense of everything. Reached a decision point/conclusion. But until I reach that internal resolution and clarity, I'm quite restless.
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  2. #152
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Well, la-di-dah!.

    But to be clear, The Past, the essence of historical foundation, is NOT SOMETHING EVERY PERSON CAN ACCESS! There are people who don't conserve and treasure the past. There are people who positively do not maintain memory and haven't sifted through the record of human content to select, discover and develop the meaningful content there. And the honest substance of the human condition isn't that clear to them.

    So, be careful about claiming to see The Past. People might think you're putting on airs.
    LOL, Kalach, your post made me laugh! No, no - I sure don't claim to know everything about "The Past" ... I didn't capitalize those words, you did :p. I agree that Si is limited by how much actual data is in the computer at any given point in time, and no one can claim to possess that sum total of wisdom. I only wanted to illustrate that Si for me is not just about what one sees in oneself, or one's own life journey. It can use experiential data from other sources, external to oneself, from the distant past right up until real-time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And the INFJs are being polite.
    Ah, thanks for clarifying!

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    So you could feel superior, of course!
    Hmm, I hadn't thought of that interpretation, I was thinking of us all MOL on a level playing field.

    Even in sports, each team needs players with a variety of strengths, after all. Some roles are just more glory-oriented.

    I think you're misreading the Te "arrogance" vs the Fe "modesty."
    Perhaps ...

    I would say that the more "disconnected" Ni is from the other functions, especially the extroverted ones, the more it seems "mystical," especially to oneself.
    Interesting; thanks for that.

    Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.
    Thanks for all that too ... the waiting time feels so challenging as you describe it.

    It sounds like being pregnant, and there's that place where time stands still, waiting ... nothing comes next until that baby is born and life is changed forever and keeps moving forward again.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #153
    i love Array skylights's Avatar
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    if i can speak as an annoyed Ne/Fi for a minute -

    so we're trying to understand a function that is not our territory. naturally, we are in a place of submission here. those of us who still seem not to get it may have already been given the answers, but perhaps not in a language that we can understand. it's like Ni doms are explaining something in mandarin chinese to an american kid and chiding and mocking him for not getting it, and for being upset with them. that's why it's so frustrating, and that's probably why most Ne/Fi users are getting pissed off and complaining about Ni arrogance. i might not have a great grasp of Ni, but i suspect i'd be able to at least begin to understand it if someone made an effort to bridge the gap and not speak in koans. but if people keep speaking chinese, then no, i'm not going to get it. uumlau's examples have been helpful, as has kalach's description including extraverted judging, once it got past being insulting. maybe it seems banal and frustrating, but Ne needs lots of information to go off of. if you can describe how Ni "feels", that's helpful too.

    i get what you're saying with addressing koans is Ni, but i don't want to just engage Ni, i want to understand what it is on a conceptual level. i know i use it IRL occasionally - i understand it experientially - but i don't really get it. i'd like to know how to go about engaging it, too, because currently a lot of the statements that are pleasing to Ni doms are making me roll my eyes and label them "not enough info" to be of use to me. once i get a better grip on what Ni is, then i can try understanding things from the Ni perspective too, but starting there is really confusing, especially because i'm not sure i totally grasp when i slide from Ne+Fi into Ni.

    my point being, i think that if Ni dom/auxs can attempt to explain Ni in depth as a process or at least give a list of characteristics or images or some kind of tangible external information, it'd be very helpful, and the perception of arrogance and Ne complaints would probably go away. sorry kalach, but to some extent, i don't know how to pull my head out of the extraverted toolbox. when we're discussing people feelings, sure, but not when we're talking conceptually. i have Ne and Te as primary processes. my intellectual world is extraverted. trying to understand Ni is trying to get away from that, but i don't know what the other tools are, much less how to use them.


  4. #154
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    LOL, Kalach, your post made me laugh! No, no - I sure don't claim to know everything about "The Past" ... I didn't capitalize those words, you did :p. I agree that Si is limited by how much actual data is in the computer at any given point in time, and no one can claim to possess that sum total of wisdom. I only wanted to illustrate that Si for me is not just about what one sees in oneself, or one's own life journey. It can use experiential data from other sources, external to oneself, from the distant past right up until real-time.
    And you're not seeing how Ni can access future data in just the same way? You didn't experience the past, but it's accessible by--I guess--incorporation of adequately descriptive, thus relatable records from others into your own record. And I see the future by (in part) synthesizing it from similarly constructed visions. If the thing I'm used to processing is future vision, then just lying around all over the place mostly unnoticed by people who don't go look for such things, there's a huge amount of stuff out there that works as resource for adequate, accurate, dynamic speculation. Novels, news reports, movies, stories with epic, mythic themes... and at a pinch, actual life experience works too. It all becomes streams and facets within the...

    within...


    the......





    *whispers*

    ...the Meta....
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  5. #155
    reborn Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And you're not seeing how Ni can access future data in just the same way?
    When you put it that way, yes, I can relate to that. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You didn't experience the past, but it's accessible by--I guess--incorporation of adequately descriptive, thus relatable records from others into your own record. And I see the future by (in part) synthesizing it from similarly constructed visions. If the thing I'm used to processing is future vision, then just lying around all over the place mostly unnoticed by people who don't go look for such things, there's a huge amount of stuff out there that works as resource for adequate, accurate, dynamic speculation. Novels, news reports, movies, stories with epic, mythic themes... and at a pinch, actual life experience works too.
    I want to know your visions ... tell me your visions.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #156
    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The more people try and make Ni seem all mystical, the more I think it's really lame and they're just trying to hide their unexceptional thought process behind some shroud of mystery.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I don't tend to view myself as having 'premonitions' or anything that is a voodoo-like process.
    I think it seems mystical because the function is very much on the unconscious side of the spectrum. You can't call upon it at will. It seems mysterious because you can't really control it and you have little transparency as to how it actually works.

    I often feel like I have "premonitions" or predictions of something that will happen in the future. I get a sudden insight out of nowhere. I feel sure of it. I have no control of it at all. Maybe it's not Ni. Maybe I'm crazy . Honestly, I just think it's the way my brain works. It's like when I was a programmer - I'd be working on something, plodding through it, and the answer would just pop up out of nowhere - "how about if we try this". It has always been one of my primary methods of solving problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's why I personally would like more Ni stories, or even Ni metaphors - they help me understand more clearly. Plus, they help me see that I have had some Ni moments in my life, even though my first, best and strongest problem-solving reaction is to pull out Ne with Fi as the impetus, the driving force.
    Generally, the way I experience this is that 1) There is some immediate external stimuli (Se) and this thing comes to me or 2) This insight pops into my head with no immediate stimuli at all - usually when I'm alone and thinking.

    I think everybody experiences all the functions. Some are just preferred far more than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think Se is less popular. Almost everyone who I have met who has it in abundance tries to pretend they are a different type. Usually ENFP or ENTP.
    This may be more true on the Internet that it is true IRL. This forum is particularly Ni friendly as far as spaces in the world go.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.
    I very much agree with these things except I do think it's useful to be able to take a perspective that allows one to turn lemons into lemonade. That is, you can take a shitty situation, turn it on its head and see the good things about it and move forward. It helps you to be more resilient.

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  7. #157
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if i can speak as an annoyed Ne/Fi for a minute -

    so we're trying to understand a function that is not our territory. naturally, we are in a place of submission here. those of us who still seem not to get it may have already been given the answers, but perhaps not in a language that we can understand. it's like Ni doms are explaining something in mandarin chinese to an american kid and chiding and mocking him for not getting it, and for being upset with them. that's why it's so frustrating, and that's probably why most Ne/Fi users are getting pissed off and complaining about Ni arrogance. i might not have a great grasp of Ni, but i suspect i'd be able to at least begin to understand it if someone made an effort to bridge the gap and not speak in koans. but if people keep speaking chinese, then no, i'm not going to get it. uumlau's examples have been helpful, as has kalach's description including extraverted judging, once it got past being insulting. maybe it seems banal and frustrating, but Ne needs lots of information to go off of. if you can describe how Ni "feels", that's helpful too.

    i get what you're saying with addressing koans is Ni, but i don't want to just engage Ni, i want to understand what it is on a conceptual level. i know i use it IRL occasionally - i understand it experientially - but i don't really get it. i'd like to know how to go about engaging it, too, because currently a lot of the statements that are pleasing to Ni doms are making me roll my eyes and label them "not enough info" to be of use to me. once i get a better grip on what Ni is, then i can try understanding things from the Ni perspective too, but starting there is really confusing, especially because i'm not sure i totally grasp when i slide from Ne+Fi into Ni.

    my point being, i think that if Ni dom/auxs can attempt to explain Ni in depth as a process or at least give a list of characteristics or images or some kind of tangible external information, it'd be very helpful, and the perception of arrogance and Ne complaints would probably go away. sorry kalach, but to some extent, i don't know how to pull my head out of the extraverted toolbox. when we're discussing people feelings, sure, but not when we're talking conceptually. i have Ne and Te as primary processes. my intellectual world is extraverted. trying to understand Ni is trying to get away from that, but i don't know what the other tools are, much less how to use them.

    Reading this made me re-read my post, as if I were an outsider, and I realized that in essence my post didn't explain a thing (as far as play-by-play process), even though as I was typing it, from my perspective it totally describes how I am and what I do and what Ni is.

    This then reminded me of something I posted a few yrs ago - something I'd written back in 2005 or thereabouts, as I wanted people on here to say what they saw in the writing, and someone responded:

    All I see is a continual interplay of Ni -- reducing tons of your own thoughts to truths about what's really happening, and adding that society/other-people-oriented bend of Fe to it all (e.g., begging the question "why are these people laying such disservice to society with <insert Ni-inspired reason here>?")

    And the mood of the content sounds like the fiery cauldron of an Idealist.


    And I remember back then having a bit of an a-ha, thinking, oh man, what I write, seems so self-evident to me, that I naturally don't feel the need to explain all of the background or the why's as to why I think something, because it seems so 'obvious' to me. Perhaps that's another indicator of dom-Ni... I/we think what we say is utterly obvious and so it doesn't occur to us to expand on certain things. And I realize that probably can't not sound arrogant, but, meh. In the process of trying to nab that underlying theme/truth/probability/perspective/whatever, getting rid of all the extraneous matter, we/I also get rid of the 'details'/process that led me to it in the first place. I guess.

    Re. the actual 'process' of Ni - I honestly don't know if I can describe it in the way you are desiring. I'll have to think a bit. And might come back. Not sure I'll be able to do it though.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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    I just spent an hour writing the most detailed description of my most signficant Ni premonition, and when I hit submit, it said I couldn't perform that action, cuz I wasn't logged in.

    Grahhhhhhhhhhh!!!


  9. #159
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I want to know your visions ... tell me your visions.
    As far as epic themes go, my visions are fairly prosaic. The themes are there cluttering them up, but mostly it's all visions of mechanisms I've come to know and be associated with. And I've been telling the visions all along.

    Is the mystique of the function undermined if I admit to using Ni to get by in a normal life?



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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if i can speak as an annoyed Ne/Fi for a minute -

    so we're trying to understand a function that is not our territory. naturally, we are in a place of submission here. those of us who still seem not to get it may have already been given the answers, but perhaps not in a language that we can understand. it's like Ni doms are explaining something in mandarin chinese to an american kid and chiding and mocking him for not getting it, and for being upset with them. that's why it's so frustrating, and that's probably why most Ne/Fi users are getting pissed off and complaining about Ni arrogance. i might not have a great grasp of Ni, but i suspect i'd be able to at least begin to understand it if someone made an effort to bridge the gap and not speak in koans. but if people keep speaking chinese, then no, i'm not going to get it. uumlau's examples have been helpful, as has kalach's description including extraverted judging, once it got past being insulting. maybe it seems banal and frustrating, but Ne needs lots of information to go off of. if you can describe how Ni "feels", that's helpful too.

    i get what you're saying with addressing koans is Ni, but i don't want to just engage Ni, i want to understand what it is on a conceptual level. i know i use it IRL occasionally - i understand it experientially - but i don't really get it. i'd like to know how to go about engaging it, too, because currently a lot of the statements that are pleasing to Ni doms are making me roll my eyes and label them "not enough info" to be of use to me. once i get a better grip on what Ni is, then i can try understanding things from the Ni perspective too, but starting there is really confusing, especially because i'm not sure i totally grasp when i slide from Ne+Fi into Ni.

    my point being, i think that if Ni dom/auxs can attempt to explain Ni in depth as a process or at least give a list of characteristics or images or some kind of tangible external information, it'd be very helpful, and the perception of arrogance and Ne complaints would probably go away. sorry kalach, but to some extent, i don't know how to pull my head out of the extraverted toolbox. when we're discussing people feelings, sure, but not when we're talking conceptually. i have Ne and Te as primary processes. my intellectual world is extraverted. trying to understand Ni is trying to get away from that, but i don't know what the other tools are, much less how to use them.

    skylights, try not to get frustrated since many of us Ni users can't explain it. Realisations pop out of nowhere. How do you explain this when you yourself, have no idea how it happens?

    I'm also not seeing any arrogance. If anything, more a poking fun at Ni. But maybe that's a manifestation of Ni humour.

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