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  1. #141
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Okay look, here's the way it works: the answers have already been given. Did anyone notice that? If you did, you're Ni. If you didn't, Ni's pretentious.
    I think Ni wins as the most unpopular function. People are afraid of what they don't understand.

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  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Ni is not synonymous with narcissistic asshole, no matter how much you guys are trying to argue that point.
    Ni does not exclude narcissism.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think Ni wins as the most unpopular function. People are afraid of what they don't understand.
    I think Se is less popular. Almost everyone who I have met who has it in abundance tries to pretend they are a different type. Usually ENFP or ENTP.

  3. #143
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    There's an interesting corollary in this thread between Ni / Ne and Fi / Fe. Ne here is the function that can tend to presume "but I know about intuition; I do that" and Ni the one to say, "No, you just don't get it."

    So since I feel like Fe doesn't get Fi, I accept that Ne doesn't really get Ni either. But it's a fascinating exploration nonetheless.
    Both of these seem to be the hardest to understand and explain and differentiate from their extraverted counterparts.
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  4. #144
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Or, to put it another way, combine an extroverted judging function which represents a formal ordering of the outside world, with a function that ends up determining the meaning of that order and how do you not end up with premonition?

    Extroverted judging is little more than an assignment of ticks and crosses to statements about the external world. Statements are marked "Yes, that matches what's out there" or "No, that doesn't match." As far as pure extroverted judgment is concerned, no statement has any subjective content. The entire project is one of matching combination of words to an external standard.

    The process of extroverted judging does not, and formally can not, provide a semantic relationship between claims. Other than "it just happens that way", there is little to say about such curiosities as, say, statement X about the outside world matches the outside world only when statement Y about the outside world matches the outside world. The question of whether or not the relationship between statements X and Y is anything other than purely formal is, in an NJ at least, the province of introverted perception.

    Introverted perception is an arrangement of content relationships. The entities of introverted perception get mapped to outside world statements, and the content relationships then provide substance for the formal connections found between given groups of outside world statements. (And for individuals either the outside world takes precedence in what those substance relationships are, or the inner world does--it depends on the person's current leaning toward either the e or the i.)

    Now introverted intuition in particular is a landscape of "the real meanings of". Name a thing (or experience it) and introverted intuition will have or generate the "real" meaning of what happened. How? By already being a landscape. A network of connected content. The connections are the products of speculation that doesn't happen in the moment, but does happen fairly constantly at all other times, building and breaking connections in a moderately constant search for better, bigger connections.


    So, toss up some situation, something determinate in the real world, and how does introverted perception NOT suddenly tell you what will happen next? The objective situation is there, the connections are there, what's not to see? This whole topic is mostly just to let Ni people know they could still be wrong? Pffft.





    (The test for Ni isn't "could". Such "could"s as could be gone over have all been gone over and over. The test is "are". A demonstration. Something to be seen in the world to rectify the corrupt coulds. Something for Se to se-. Meh, but I suppose discussion is okay too.)



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  5. #145
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I think this is the quintessential Ni Te characteristic. Ni sees the future, as though it was linear and vertical, while Te is poised for any external contingency. Te also seems to be applied to hard, fast, and broad rules, whereas Ti is much more particular in its sequencing. Once Ti grasps the essence of a theory, it can sequence the next appropriate step through a priori analysis.

    This makes me exceptionally curious about how INFJs experience premonitions.
    I don't tend to view myself as having 'premonitions' or anything that is a voodoo-like process.

    But, I do know that I am rarely caught off guard or surprised, simply because my everyday approach to pretty much everything is to 'compute' or come up with pretty much every conceivable scenario/outcome of everything. [Yes, I just used a lot of 'every-' in that sentence ] So whether that be a situation at work and how that might unfold, whether it's a logistical thing involving travel/transportation, whether it's a specific relationship/interaction with a close friend, a conversation I'm about to have, the election of a president or some other large scale world event....I'll have already thought of the various possibilites of how it will unfold, so that I'm prepared and can adjust according to whichever scenario does unfold. However that only covers the 'I'm not surprised' element - I'll also already have a pretty good idea of which one will in fact unfold - I'll say I have an inner 'probability' radar. So while I might be somewhat surprised that a low-probability thing happened, it was still one of the contingencies so it wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility in the first place. But I think what I do (and perhaps other Ni doms do as well, although I hate speaking for all) as my natural mode of being is always try to pin down THE possibility that will happen. Which one is true, which one is IT? That definitive thing that removes all other possibilities. What WILL the person do? What will happen at work today? How will the meeting go down? If I say this I know this might happen but I say it this other way then I might be able to shift things such that this other thing might have a better possibility of happening instead. Etc. And the better you know your subject - whether it be a large-scale thing, or whether it be an individuals' personality quirks and behaviors and nuances, or whether it's human nature/psychology in general - the better able you'll be to predict what WILL happen or what they WILL do. Which is why you need to go external - you need that actual info to finetune things and better ascertain the probabilities.
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  6. #146
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Personally, I am not interested in taking anything magical away from an Ni dom. I feel the same about my Fi, so why would I want to diminish the experiences of anyone's dominant function?

    I've noted on the forum though that the INFJ's tend to distance themselves from casting Ni as this "god-like all-seeing all-knowing" function more-so than my INTJ buds.

    Makes me wonder if the tripping point here trying to explain Ni is tertiary Fi (or inferior Fi use) ... putting someone down in order to build oneself up ... to explain Ni is it necessary to assume a "holier than thou" position or get so immediately frustrated with those who need more information to try to grasp it?

    That's why I personally would like more Ni stories, or even Ni metaphors - they help me understand more clearly. Plus, they help me see that I have had some Ni moments in my life, even though my first, best and strongest problem-solving reaction is to pull out Ne with Fi as the impetus, the driving force.
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  7. #147
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    But, I do know that I am rarely caught off guard or surprised, simply because my everyday approach to pretty much everything is to 'compute' or come up with pretty much every conceivable scenario/outcome of everything.
    For me, Si is the vantage point to look from the past and try to come up with every possible scenario of how things could go wrong, not just my personal past, but from history itself, right up to stories and experiences from other people in my present life. (In fact, I consider Si my most likely tripping point in the present. Every situation is unique and therefore will not necessarily unfold as the past did. But I digress.)

    I used to feel comfortable living with probability on my side, until some very improbable events occurred to me that made me keenly aware I was not exempt from negative outcomes, no matter how unlikely their occurrence might be.

    Does Ni give you comfort? Does it make you feel safer, when planning your life or looking at the future? For example, you say you're not surprised when the improbable occurs, but does it shake your faith in your ability to accurately anticipate the future nonetheless? There are things one can control and things one cannot; does Ni help you focus more on the things that you DO have control over?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  8. #148
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ni does not exclude narcissism.
    Nor does Ni indicate intelligence. (A general statement, not a veiled insult directed at anyone!) Ni is just a means of perceiving. It has some great strengths and some remarkable weaknesses.

    I think Se is less popular. Almost everyone who I have met who has it in abundance tries to pretend they are a different type. Usually ENFP or ENTP.
    Yeah, and even then Ni has some degree of popularity, given the number of people who will self identify as INTJs instead of INTP or ENTP or ISTP.

    With respect to Se, I understand its lack of popularity, because it sounds like a "stupid" attitude. However, living "in the moment" is a very enlightened way of life, so long as it isn't accompanied by crass immaturity. People with strong Se tend to think that what they do must be intuitive, because so much of sensing is "concrete" and often described in such a way that it describes Si more than Se.

    Se has its own "intuition," and I don't mean the Ni variety that appears in developed ISxPs. Se "just knows" the right thing to do in a given moment. If accompanied by a well-developed introverted function (Ti or Fi), it can quickly analyze a situation "in the moment" and come up with a reaction or judgment that is eminently apropos.

    In fact, Se works quite well with Ni, when both are developed. Se provides the "real time" information, and Ni can further perceive and evaluate it with refinement. This serves to counteract Se's primary weakness which is shortsightedness: Se tends not to gather information that isn't immediately within reach, and that results in a tendency to make great short term decisions, but fairly mediocre long-term decisions. Ti, Fi and Ni modulate Se to embody a more long-term perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Now introverted intuition in particular is a landscape of "the real meanings of". Name a thing (or experience it) and introverted intuition will have or generate the "real" meaning of what happened. How? By already being a landscape. A network of connected content. The connections are the products of speculation that doesn't happen in the moment, but does happen fairly constantly at all other times, building and breaking connections in a moderately constant search for better, bigger connections.

    So, toss up some situation, something determinate in the real world, and how does introverted perception NOT suddenly tell you what will happen next? The objective situation is there, the connections are there, what's not to see?
    A very good post, overall, Kalach!

    I've selected particular pieces to highlight them, and bolded parts of these to further draw attention to what Ni is really doing.

    The bolded is how Ni and Se relate. Ni maintains an internal landscape, as K calls it. I would call it an internal dynamic model: for me Ni really is a "function"! Se (or Te or Fe) provides input, and out pops the answer.

    I would describe Ni as providing a "result" based on "Ni(Se,Te,Fe)", where Ni is the "function" and you just plug in the extroverted function "variables." Thus Ni "tells you" what is going on, and that information is consequentially predictive, because Ni is a dynamic model. By virtue of knowing "what is really happening," we also predict "what will happen," with a remarkable degree of accuracy.

    I should use this observation to point out a weakness of Ni: it depends on the input values, and it isn't obvious where the input values come from. E.g., it's possible to have just Ni(null, Te, null), or Ni(null, null, Fe) or Ni(Se, null, null). Or worse: Ni(null, null, null). Or nearly as bizarre: Ni(Ti) or Ni(Fi).

    Ni needs to build its landscape/model, and that model is necessarily built in terms of the Ni user's other functions. If those other functions are weak, or nearly non-existent, Ni can come up with some really crack-brained ideas. The more developed the other functions are, the more apt Ni is at spotting "what is really going on." The more Ni "sees" (or would that be "Se's"?), the more accurate its predictions. In the case of the extroverted judging functions, each tends to blind Ni to its opposite, so that Ni only sees the Te connections or the Fe connections, but not both, thus limiting its reliability.

  9. #149
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    For me, Si is the vantage point to look from the past and try to come up with every possible scenario of how things could go wrong, not just my personal past, but from history itself, right up to stories and experiences from other people in my present life.
    Well, la-di-dah!.



    But to be clear, The Past, the essence of historical foundation, is NOT SOMETHING EVERY PERSON CAN ACCESS! There are people who don't conserve and treasure the past. There are people who positively do not maintain memory and haven't sifted through the record of human content to select, discover and develop the meaningful content there. And the honest substance of the human condition isn't that clear to them.

    So, be careful about claiming to see The Past. People might think you're putting on airs.



    And the INFJs are being polite. Since their vision deals directly with (chosen) people, their future gazing partakes less of the tangible and mechanistic and more of the intangible but substantial condition of the human.

    Or not. Who knows what the Jedi really think?
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  10. #150
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I don't tend to view myself as having 'premonitions' or anything that is a voodoo-like process.

    ...

    Which is why you need to go external - you need that actual info to finetune things and better ascertain the probabilities.
    Exactly. Ni is just "a way of looking at" the input data, which needs to be external (extroverted). Ni can work with other introverted functions, but it tends to result in "thumbsucking" insights unless those other introverted functions are strongly developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Personally, I am not interested in taking anything magical away from an Ni dom. I feel the same about my Fi, so why would I want to diminish the experiences of anyone's dominant function?
    So you could feel superior, of course!

    I've noted on the forum though that the INFJ's tend to distance themselves from casting Ni as this "god-like all-seeing all-knowing" function more-so than my INTJ buds.

    Makes me wonder if the tripping point here trying to explain Ni is tertiary Fi (or inferior Fi use) ... putting someone down in order to build oneself up ... to explain Ni is it necessary to assume a "holier than thou" position or get so immediately frustrated with those who need more information to try to grasp it?
    I think you're misreading the Te "arrogance" vs the Fe "modesty." I've known plenty of INFJs to promote the mystical "just knowing" nature of Ni, some of whom think they're INTJs, so they're a special case of Ni/Ti emphasis.

    I would say that the more "disconnected" Ni is from the other functions, especially the extroverted ones, the more it seems "mystical," especially to oneself.

    That's why I personally would like more Ni stories, or even Ni metaphors - they help me understand more clearly. Plus, they help me see that I have had some Ni moments in my life, even though my first, best and strongest problem-solving reaction is to pull out Ne with Fi as the impetus, the driving force.
    This is entirely within the scope of what I discussed before: Ne dom/aux use Ni a lot, because a large part of intuition is simply considering alternate possibilities. Ne looks for alternate external possibilities, while Ni focuses on alternate internal possibilities (which reduces to alternate perspectives/contexts). Ne doms simply go in the Ne-direction first, using Ni as backup. The reverse is true for Ni doms.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    For me, Si is the vantage point to look from the past and try to come up with every possible scenario of how things could go wrong, not just my personal past, but from history itself, right up to stories and experiences from other people in my present life. (In fact, I consider Si my most likely tripping point in the present. Every situation is unique and therefore will not necessarily unfold as the past did. But I digress.)

    I used to feel comfortable living with probability on my side, until some very improbable events occurred to me that made me keenly aware I was not exempt from negative outcomes, no matter how unlikely their occurrence might be.

    Does Ni give you comfort? Does it make you feel safer, when planning your life or looking at the future? For example, you say you're not surprised when the improbable occurs, but does it shake your faith in your ability to accurately anticipate the future nonetheless? There are things one can control and things one cannot; does Ni help you focus more on the things that you DO have control over?
    Ni doesn't give comfort, except insofar as it is abused. Ni can "comfort" oneself by adopting a perspective that casts things in a favorable light, instead of a true light. Alternatively, Ni can go completely paranoid cuckoo if one becomes entranced by its darker predictions. Personally, I feel agitated with a pending situation until it is resolved or I can figure it out to the point that it's resolved in my head. Ni doesn't help resolve it: the other extroverted functions help resolve it by providing enough information to narrow the scope of possibilities to something manageable, that in turn allows an effective decision to be made. E.g., it doesn't help if I can predict something, even with uncanny accuracy, if I really can't make a decision based on that knowledge. For some things, we have to WAIT until they happen before making a decision, so we feel anxious until that point. In the meantime, however, we will have decided quite clearly what we will do, when it's time.

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