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  1. #111
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Ni, for me, makes it easy for me to see the whole picture of a situation.
    I don't consider myself a particularly creative person but, at the very least, I can think fifty steps ahead.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    Ni, for me, makes it easy for me to see the whole picture of a situation.
    I don't consider myself a particularly creative person but, at the very least, I can think fifty steps ahead.
    I think this is the quintessential Ni Te characteristic. Ni sees the future, as though it was linear and vertical, while Te is poised for any external contingency. Te also seems to be applied to hard, fast, and broad rules, whereas Ti is much more particular in its sequencing. Once Ti grasps the essence of a theory, it can sequence the next appropriate step through a priori analysis.

    This makes me exceptionally curious about how INFJs experience premonitions.

  3. #113
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Ladies and Gentlebeans,

    I find your lack of faith uninspiring. It seems you're sufficiently unfamiliar with "The Long View" that you've come to engineer ways to be assured other people be unfamiliar with it too. "Ni is just...", pfft. Ni is just Yo Momma, the long view you don't have.

    If you would like to define Ni, consider not equating it with inadequate versions of your own functions. Or we can do your perception functions next.


    Se: snacks.
    Si: snacks from last week.
    Ne: filling the crossword puzzle with more blanks.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #114
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    To Uumlau: Do you think this randomnity is a good description for the foresight? I have to think about this question a little more... Actually would you say that 'scattershot' is a good description to describe the foresight? I mean to say that because you're amassing a great deal of plausibilities it's almost impossible for an insight not to occur.

    Almost. It's scattershot with a filter, e.g., Te. Without the filter, you just end up with a gazillion possibilities. Te or Fe judge the potential results of the scattershot internally, and only a very few (or even no) possibilities emerge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I think the reason it seems absurd is because it's so twisted. When you deliver a statement like that, it's as though you've created entirely new details to be woven into the plot, and those details just "happen" to be the case. But, epistemologically, you were given all of the data and you shifted the way you looked at it. You saw past the facade. Here's a question I have for you, though. When you experience a perspective shift, do you consider it to be an absolute truth, or an alternative speculation that holds just as much weight?
    For me, it was a "that's probably true" insight. It just bubbled up in my head, really, and I compared it to what was going on, and it just "seemed right" even though it was absurd. However, I also know that I don't know 100% for sure, I just know that it's a very likely guess.

    Remember, we Ni-doms have to be a bit skeptical of our intuition, or we start turning out crackpot theories. It is by comparing our intuition to reality that we learn which insights are useful.

    With such practice, I've become fairly good at predicting plot twists, and there are only a few writers that challenge me in that regard, e.g., Joss Whedon. Sadly, it makes a lot of movies terribly boring for me, as I know exactly what is going to happen. Sometimes though, predictable books/movies can be fun if I feel like my talent for prediction is at least being moderately challenged, or if I approve of how artistically/dramatically the plot "surprises" flow.

    From the sound of your post, it seems more like you're looking through a facade. That's not because you claim your insights to be true, but you recognize the inconsistencies within the impression of the circumstances. You knew something wasn't quite solved with the Twilight episode, and similarly, something was atypical about the long name.
    Yes. It isn't just seeing through the facade so much as a habitual way of looking at things. I want everything I observe to make sense to me, but rather than going to books and looking things up, I would guess for myself. Back before I understood relativity, I was making guesses as to why it was true, e.g., photons are massless, therefore they go at the speed of light, because if they had mass, it would be infinite. (That's really circular reasoning, I know - but none of my high school physics teachers were equipped to explain it to me, so I was stuck with my own guesswork, and didn't happen upon any books that explained it based on the classical laws of electromagnetism. My readings all focused on the "gee whiz" time dilation and such, without explaining why, so I was left with guessing why.)

    So whenever I look at something, and it doesn't work the way I think it should, I know I have something wrong (or it has something wrong). I compare what is essentially a dynamic model in my mind (Ni) with the real thing (Te). My models says that thus-and-such should be true, but it obviously isn't. So I unconsciously switch perspectives (hypotheses) until I have an internal model that does predict the real thing. That new hypothesis tells me exactly where to look for what is broken and fix it, if the problem is with the real thing. Or the new hypothesis provides my prognostication a great deal more accuracy, since it corrects for something I didn't know before.

    It's kind of like doing science experiments in my head, before I actually tackle the thing in real life.

    In my experience with the forumers here, Ni users always foresee escalating future events through observance of slightly atypical circumstances. Like, let's say that a new member with a particular character joins the forum. An Ni user may instinctively know that there may be a rash of similar forum members to usher in the future. Would you say this is true?
    I'd be more likely to say "selection effect."

    One of the main tools I use to make sure I don't come up with nonsense models is understanding logical fallacies and poor observational techniques. That is to say, I need to know how to look at things with Ni, and not simply just accept the first thing that pops into my head.

    Also, because I'm Te, not Fe, I don't see the people patterns as easily as INFJs do. I can study an individual and gradually be able to predict the kind of behaviors/responses I'll get in any particular situation, but that knowledge is hard-earned for me. More objective phenomena, the more it's about things and not people, the more fast and accurate my predictions are.

  5. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    Ni, for me, makes it easy for me to see the whole picture of a situation.
    I don't consider myself a particularly creative person but, at the very least, I can think fifty steps ahead.
    Fifty steps? That's a lot of steps considering that most often, there's no hard eventuality unless you personally, force it through. And even then, specific outcomes aren't predetermined if external influences are out of your control. If you had stated that you can see multiple outcomes where your actions can change the direction of the outcomes, this would be more understandable.

  6. #116
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ a fair point, and an interesting one. I was chatting the other day with an INFJ about the thin line between seeing the future and creating it. Do all Ni groovers have this: where you sometimes want to avoid saying too clearly to someone what the future will be because them knowing, and adopting, your formulation will taint the outcome, quite literally alter what the future was going to be, and turn it into something you don't know anymore? This happens worst when other people aren't conscious of what they intend to do but are willing to use formulations supplied from outside though this won't actually stop them from doing whatever it was they were going to do. In short, they mess with the Te or Fe pillars. They undermine external verities and we get chaos not just inside but now also outside and the future stops being seen.

    Possibility. Possibility is for the internal world. The external world is for order and construction. This is how Ni can function. Other people are supposed to be verifiable. And it was interesting talking to the INFJ. We both agreed that we like telling people what to do but dislike being told what to do.

    So, Ni, what the hell is it? It's something that works with something else.



    But I don't know about seeing the multiple outcomes. That's just otiose.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #117

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    Otiose? I wouldn't say so. Planning for best/worst outcomes using an internal yes/no flowchart or interconnected flowcharts, allows you to always be ahead of the game when it matters, specifically work related. But this might be an illustration of Te/Ni working together.

  8. #118
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Well, it's that line between seeing the future and creating it: you can exclude outcomes by taking first steps. Indeed, without steps of some kind, there isn't much future to see at all. There's all the steps other people have been taking, so there's that set of conditions at least, but too much of that and we're getting too far into Te territory. But Ni blasting off in all directions... that seems like it'd induce a paralysis of some kind. In fact it does. I find for myself there's a tension between mentally wandering off wherever and mentally being vacuous. Gotta have one, prefer to skip the other.

    I find for myself that external conditions (and externalising techniques) provide the structure (or are made into the structure) and internal musing provides the content (or is an interpreter of the content). What's possible, what's going to come, what's meaningful given some conditions.

    But...

    if I am to feel alive and lively, then what is going on in my head has to be able to stretch out beyond the confines of too many demanding conditions. There has to be an expansion, and a connection of that expansion to something bigger. There's a satisfaction in seeing the larger picture, and a dissatisfaction at seeing merely uh larger picture.

    Perhaps I am describing a creative tension between extroverted judging and introverted perceiving. The idea of seeing all the possibilities is... unpleasant. Seeing all the possibilities that can come true... that's better.

    (It's interesting, I couldn't write that last sentence in the way I wanted: if I said "all the possibilities that will come true", I have a contradiction, but if I say "all the possibilities that can come true" I have a tautology... I need to be able to say something like: all the possibilities distilled into eventuality. And, kablammo, we're seeing the future! Unless I just made all that up. Which is possible too.)


    That part, the distilling part, is the i of Ni, I reckon. Something like that.
    Or maybe it's the t of Te.
    It's interesting again, the image of actually knowing the future, of distilling all possibilities into one eventuality, is unpleasant. Confining. I wonder why.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #119

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    Maybe the difference in our perceptions is "all outcomes" versus "multiple outcomes". I agree that Ni gone wild would be counterproductive. But if you put all your eggs in a single basket of outcomes, it limits potential and also leaves you flat-footed if there's no room for deviance with uncontrollable elements. A way to hedge your bets.

    The more we discuss this, the more it appears to crystallise into Ni being heavily influenced by Te and possibly even an ounce of shadow Ne thrown in.

  10. #120
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Arguably, you're saying we have to leave room for Se.

    When events shoot off in some direction unforeseen by the All-See Ni (!!!), we can still jump on that runaway train and drag on the brake handle.

    Perhaps the true story of Ni is the story of Ni-Se. Having extroverted judging in the story has maybe complicated it, but arguably there has to be some "e" in the story. It is perhaps to be presumed that no function exists without there being some dynamic balance somewhere to support it.

    Or not, I dunno. We can see white without seeing black, but can we understand it? The sound of one hand clapping is the buzzing of a fly.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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