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  1. #81
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Also here's the link to the study they mentioned showing behavioural differences in boys and girls - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=22251308 (this one is open access).
    Ugh, so now this is making the rounds. Well, here's a piece of analysis from another expect (Cordelia Fine, for anyone who is familiar and might have a specific interest in reading what she has to say), parsing what they found and how the findings don't support the conclusions they are trying to draw: https://theconversation.com/new-insi...rosexism-21083
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  2. #82
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Appropriate place to plug her excellent book again: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delusions-Ge.../dp/1848312202
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #83
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    Ugh, so now this is making the rounds. Well, here's a piece of analysis from another expect (Cordelia Fine, for anyone who is familiar and might have a specific interest in reading what she has to say), parsing what they found and how the findings don't support the conclusions they are trying to draw: https://theconversation.com/new-insi...rosexism-21083
    That's a nice commentary. @Salome made similar points above. I didn't read the pop science article very carefully because I assumed they'd do that (they do that in most scientific fields, unfortunately), and if they said things like that in the article itself, I skimmed over them. It's interesting that the author is making such unsupported claims in interviews, though - it's certainly true that there's no evidence of "hardwiring" in the sense that people are born with their brains like that and never change - they saw change over adolescence, in fact. There's also little evidence that men "excel" at tasks and women at others - there's considerable overlap for pretty much all skills, barring those requiring high physical strength. Still, it's interesting to see the differences in brain activity they observed. It'd be much more interesting if they could link them to a behavioural outcome in any way.
    -end of thread-

  4. #84
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    That's a nice commentary. @Salome made similar points above. I didn't read the pop science article very carefully because I assumed they'd do that (they do that in most scientific fields, unfortunately), and if they said things like that in the article itself, I skimmed over them. It's interesting that the author is making such unsupported claims in interviews, though - it's certainly true that there's no evidence of "hardwiring" in the sense that people are born with their brains like that and never change - they saw change over adolescence, in fact. There's also little evidence that men "excel" at tasks and women at others - there's considerable overlap for pretty much all skills, barring those requiring high physical strength. Still, it's interesting to see the differences in brain activity they observed. It'd be much more interesting if they could link them to a behavioural outcome in any way.
    Well, one of the most interesting points that Fine brings up is the (average) brain size difference and how a bigger brain is not the same thing as a smaller brain enlarged. Whatever my objections to the conclusions being drawn from this research, this particular one never occurred to me. Its corollary, that maybe the different wiring serves specifically to counteract differences in cognition among genders that may otherwise occur, and given the overwhelming overlap in measured mental abilities of men and women, it's just as plausible (if not more so) an explanation for the observed wiring difference, would not have occurred to me either, without being laid out like that.

    It just always annoys me so much to see yet another study trotting out "proof" of how men are X and women are Y, therefore (implied) there's this crucial difference between the sexes!!1! It almost seems like the people who are into this research (both the scientists and their target audience) feel, on some level, like the primary and secondary sexual characteristics are just not enough to differentiate men from women, and there's got to be something more fundamental than that.
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  5. #85
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    In my experience, the construct of "type" seems to matter more than the construct of "gender", meaning that past any interest for girly clothing or make-up I will surely find the style of thinking and behavior of an ENTJ woman much more similar to mine, compared to the thinking of an ISFJ man.

    I personally don't really find "Men are from mars, women are from venus" that compelling. IME men are on average physically stronger and more active, and socialized to be more openly assertive, but there aren't really that many additional differences. "Averages" are imho not that meaningful, if women are 5% worse on spatial tasks on average while the variance is stable, there'll be such an enormous overlap that any difference will be barely noticeable at the individual level.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #86
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    It's articles like these where the INTP brain blows everything open with their ginormous logical analysis in excruciatingly painful detail that I question the very existence of any Ti within the comparatively frail frameworks of my own irrational being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I see at least one obvious problem: the widely cited conclusions are absurd. Not to mention, unfounded.
    We have known about structural differences in the brains of men and women for some time : for example, that women have proportionally more grey matter (brain cells) and men more white (connective tissue). However, given that we have such limited understanding of how brains work, we have no basis for drawing conclusions about what any such structural differences might mean. To jump from "the left and right hemispheres are better connected in women" to "women are more analytical AND intuitive" is patently absurd. About as valid as the "science" of 19th century phrenology.
    INTPs are so predictable, seeing some kind of deterministic sequencing behind everything, like the world system operates along rigid definitions of their Ti laws without any kinds of random contingencies in chaotic directions whatsoever with promise to generate results counter to strict analysis.

    I am interested in brain lateralisation, and I find it unsurprising that women's brains might be more highly "integrated" than men's are, and we know of at least one mechanism for mediating such differences, in that testosterone is neurotoxic and effectively "prunes" adolescent male brains more severely than is the case for adolescent non-male brains, and that this process probably starts in utero. However, we don't know enough to draw sound conclusions about innate gender-specific abilities / disabilities that might arise thereby or whether these might be acquired more by nature or nurture, especially when research exists which overturns long-held assumptions about "innate" differences in, for example, math ability. (http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/3...-trump-nature/)
    Ah yes, INTPs also need to integrate everything together into some kind of holistic picture, where all of the pieces logically connect to everything else. I much prefer the idea of obliterating the old puzzle and forging a new on of my own design rather than coming to understand what's there.

    What we can be certain of, is that human brains are highly plastic by default and that individual differences are much more significant than those that can be attributed to gender. Also that the effects of nurture on the postnatal brain are at least, if not more, important then those of nature in determining adult capacities. We know, for example, that a brain primed by nature to excel in the use of language will nevertheless result in a completely dumb, illiterate adult if the critical period for acquiring language does not include appropriate stimuli / learning experiences. Above all else, we are creatures with an enhanced capacity to learn from others. I believe that innate differences in our capacity to acquire different skills owe more to typological difference than to gender. In fact, statistics prove this to be the case. The best people in any field outperform the vast majority of the population (of either gender). This would not be true if gender were more highly deterministic than other factors.
    It's ironic though how language is completely contingent upon how we perceive things which, as experience in past contexts has shown, is highly questionable in how well it actually reflects the reality of it all. Language can also synthesize from an infinite spectrum of possibilities; logic can't.

    What is odd is that highlander would try to use this study to support his prejudices, when it actually appears to do the opposite. I guess he got distracted by the headline and ignored the content. A common enough mistake.
    Maybe you should start quoting Nietzsche, as he said: "Man is something that must be overcome!" I guess we need you (the woman) to come along!

  7. #87
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I think gender not because of inherent differences but because of different experiences between genders (some due to biological differences and others due to external factors).

    This means that women's and men's experiences will inherently be different, but how individuals react to this experience will vary.

  8. #88
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think gender not because of inherent differences but because of different experiences between genders (some due to biological differences and others due to external factors).

    This means that women's and men's experiences will inherently be different, but how individuals react to this experience will vary.
    That reaction will differ significantly based on type. I agree about the effect of gender-based acculturation. Some types will resist it more than others, whether the individuals are male or female.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #89
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think gender not because of inherent differences but because of different experiences between genders (some due to biological differences and others due to external factors).
    Amusingly, you yourself provide a datapoint in support of the opposite conclusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #90
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Amusingly, you yourself provide a datapoint in support of the opposite conclusion.
    I may be typical of my type, which is a good thing in my opinion. But the ways in which I think females are similar due to similar experience apply to me too.

    For instance, due to greater vulnerability to being raped, women will perceive certain things in a more threatening manner than men will.

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