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  1. #71
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    It's an interesting article. Here's the original research - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24297904. Unfortunately it requires a subscription, but if anyone's really interested I can send you the pdf. It's not an area of science I'm particularly familiar with, but PNAS is a high-level journal and I don't see any obvious problems from a quick skim of the paper.

    Can't say I really understand the way they measured the connections they talk about, but it's interesting that there's such a clear difference between men and women. It'd be interesting to find out how much is due to hormones vs. brain structure vs. learning. I'd be curious to see what they'd find in older adults, where behaviour is far less gender-influenced as people mature out of hormone-driven adolescence - they looked at ages 8-22, and found the greatest differences were in mid-adolescents, suggesting some of it might be hormone-driven. It'd also be interesting to look at adults with altered hormones - transgendered people taking hormones, women undergoing menopause, hormone-related treatments for cancer, etc.
    -end of thread-

  2. #72
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Also here's the link to the study they mentioned showing behavioural differences in boys and girls - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=22251308 (this one is open access)

    To summarize, they found statistically significant differences between the genders in several areas of cognitive performance, but the effect sizes were small for all of them - in other words, the averages are different, but not by very much. The effect of age was much more strong than the effect of gender (unsurprisingly). That's based on their descriptions in the text because I don't really understand the z-score that they used to generate their graphs, so I'm not sure how to interpret the error bars and so on.
    -end of thread-

  3. #73
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    It's a bit like asking: "Which matters more? What color your eyes are, or what color your hair is?" From a stringently objective POV, neither makes or breaks a person; both play a part in how they function on equal levels. If you believe differently, then it's due to your personal preference.

    That said, I tend to notice gender first, which means that their gender is going to effect how I view them more in the long term because I'll be given more time to judge them by gender-related standards. Their personalities tend to overrule many preconceptions. I don't think my type-related standards pan out because... I don't really do type-related standards IRL.

  4. #74
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Type is the ultimate measure, at least for one's personality. You can class people by race, gender, religion, age, culture, politics, education, jobs, and many other measures, but on the whole, I thought Dario Nardi showed that people in the same type, regardless of the other above categories tend to think most similarly.
    This has been my experience as well, namely that type vastly outweighs gender. These physiological differences may explain the unevenness in T/F distribution for men and women. Many stereotypical gender differences or conflicts seem to boil down to this dichotomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    It's a bit like asking: "Which matters more? What color your eyes are, or what color your hair is?" From a stringently objective POV, neither makes or breaks a person; both play a part in how they function on equal levels. If you believe differently, then it's due to your personal preference.

    That said, I tend to notice gender first, which means that their gender is going to effect how I view them more in the long term because I'll be given more time to judge them by gender-related standards. Their personalities tend to overrule many preconceptions. I don't think my type-related standards pan out because... I don't really do type-related standards IRL.
    Not at all. This suggests the factors are equivalent, while they are clearly not. Yes, neither gender nor type "makes or breaks a person", but IME they do not play equal roles in influencing human behavior. I was going to write that judging people by gender is only a little more substantive than judging them by hair or eye color. Unfortunately that is not correct, given the strength of social and cultural expectations surrounding gender roles. None of this is innate to people, however.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #75
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post


    Not at all. This suggests the factors are equivalent, while they are clearly not. Yes, neither gender nor type "makes or breaks a person", but IME they do not play equal roles in influencing human behavior. I was going to write that judging people by gender is only a little more substantive than judging them by hair or eye color. Unfortunately that is not correct, given the strength of social and cultural expectations surrounding gender roles. None of this is innate to people, however.
    This begs the question - by what quantitative measure do we assess these factors?

  6. #76
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    Yea, type matters more than gender. Don't think you should go around slapping women on the butt though, unless you are their friend and another woman. That is, gender sets the tone for socially appropriate behaviour in interactions. But then again, I don't think a thinker woman would want her female friends slapping her ass, even if it's "harmless."

    Men are from mars, women are from venus deals with the T vs. F divide.

  7. #77
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I ask three things when i want to size someone up quickly online:

    Age, gender and type.

    Im pretty good at guessing the first and the last myself. Perhaps I have less experience guessing gender due to not having to irl and in most conversations gender will be irrelevant - meaning that it shows less obviously in their speech patterns than say age and type.

    That said, when i map out someones personality of how they work, it is VITAL information. For instance, pressures they were under as a kid will be different which shapes their perception of reality and triggers different copng mechanisms in different situations, accounting for important behavioral tendencies and personality quirks. Just like type and age do -perhaps even moreso. In fact, the other stuff is less vital to me as gender is harder for me to get a read on atm. Still working on finetuning the behavioral markers for that.
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  8. #78
    WALMART
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    The individual reigns supreme.

  9. #79
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Both in different things. I mean you cant understand a woman completely if you dont understand women in general and i dont mean their psychology that much, but more like persona, societal pressures and stuff like that. MBTI on the other hand can help you understand the persons psychology, but doesent help to understand the nurture aspect of the person(which i claim varies usually quite much between genders and even if some girl acts like a jock, there is often some underlying reasons that effect the persona, but isnt genetic).
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  10. #80
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    It's an interesting article. Here's the original research - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24297904. Unfortunately it requires a subscription, but if anyone's really interested I can send you the pdf. It's not an area of science I'm particularly familiar with, but PNAS is a high-level journal and I don't see any obvious problems from a quick skim of the paper.
    I see at least one obvious problem: the widely cited conclusions are absurd. Not to mention, unfounded.
    We have known about structural differences in the brains of men and women for some time : for example, that women have proportionally more grey matter (brain cells) and men more white (connective tissue). However, given that we have such limited understanding of how brains work, we have no basis for drawing conclusions about what any such structural differences might mean. To jump from "the left and right hemispheres are better connected in women" to "women are more analytical AND intuitive" is patently absurd. About as valid as the "science" of 19th century phrenology.

    I am interested in brain lateralisation, and I find it unsurprising that women's brains might be more highly "integrated" than men's are, and we know of at least one mechanism for mediating such differences, in that testosterone is neurotoxic and effectively "prunes" adolescent male brains more severely than is the case for adolescent non-male brains, and that this process probably starts in utero. However, we don't know enough to draw sound conclusions about innate gender-specific abilities / disabilities that might arise thereby or whether these might be acquired more by nature or nurture, especially when research exists which overturns long-held assumptions about "innate" differences in, for example, math ability. (http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/3...-trump-nature/)

    What we can be certain of, is that human brains are highly plastic by default and that individual differences are much more significant than those that can be attributed to gender. Also that the effects of nurture on the postnatal brain are at least, if not more, important then those of nature in determining adult capacities. We know, for example, that a brain primed by nature to excel in the use of language will nevertheless result in a completely dumb, illiterate adult if the critical period for acquiring language does not include appropriate stimuli / learning experiences. Above all else, we are creatures with an enhanced capacity to learn from others. I believe that innate differences in our capacity to acquire different skills owe more to typological difference than to gender. In fact, statistics prove this to be the case. The best people in any field outperform the vast majority of the population (of either gender). This would not be true if gender were more highly deterministic than other factors.

    What is odd is that highlander would try to use this study to support his prejudices, when it actually appears to do the opposite. I guess he got distracted by the headline and ignored the content. A common enough mistake.
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