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What matters more - Type or Gender?

Magic Poriferan

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For me, this is like a question from hell...

Type, theoretically, should absolutely be the winner. It's just that personality type systems are often so riddled with problems or applied so incorrectly that they tell one nothing at all. Personality type is one of those frustrating things where we can know something is knowable, but not know how to know that thing. Not yet, anyway.

With gender, there is possibly some merit in making a guess about someone's personality based on it (as much as I hate to say it) if you have a good understanding of the culture of the person you are dealing with. Biological differences aside, genders are conditioned differently everywhere. This means that when comparing gender assessment could be more affective than any number of completely awful personality type systems.

But really, if you can hold a personality type system up to some basic standards in its design and application (something that has been surprisingly hard for people to do), it should be more accurate because it should reflect details about the mind of the individual being typed, and that's more reliable because (here we go again) even if you swallow all the purported evidence of gender differences, individuals within a gender are on average more different from each other than the two genders are collectively different from each other.

And the usual disclaimer follows that if you are trying to do a case study of someone, you can probably just forget about gender and personality type. They might hurt you more than help you in understanding all of a single subject's potentially deviant nuances.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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So F-women are that way because of conditioning and T women aren't because they're not susceptible to conditioning? F is the "susceptible to conditioning" trait? I don't buy it. What about F men?
For F women and T men, cultural conditioning reinforces innate tendencies. For T women and F men, the influences are opposing. Which wins out depends upon circumstances that include the strength of the vying influences. Fe may be the "susceptible to conditioning" trait, if there is one, due to its orientation to external values. Te may produce similar results, since it may cause a person to see some logic in conforming to get what they really want. Certain types are probably more resistant to conditioning than others, but individual upbringing will play a strong role as well. Obviously this is all an oversimplification, but it lends some insight into gender dynamics. Annwn explored the complexity in greater depth.

As for whether the various preferences are on a continuum or exclusive opposites, I have read contradictory claims. It may help to remember that T, F, S, and N are functions, while E, I, P, and J are considered attitudes. Everyone uses every function, at least to some degree, so it makes sense that these fall on continua. Some functions take on an attitude of E, others of I, but one's overall orientation (as the referenced brain studies suggest) tends to be either/or.

Finally, to Slowriot: what differences do you see between male and female F's, or female and male T's? In my experience, I get along more with people of similar type of either gender, than with people of the same gender but much different type. I have always had close friends (friends, not romantic interests) of both genders as well.
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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I reckon women tend to score higher on agreeableness because most are SFJs and therefore extroverted feelers.
 

Thalassa

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I score relatively low for a female on agreeableness.

Of course, that's probably because I have Fi, not Fe.
 

highlander

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All you are doing here is stating your beliefs. Where is the evidence? I've studied gender in some depth, looking for concrete differences, and I haven't been able to come up with anything compelling. Frustrating as that is.

It seems absurd to me that you can suppose putting someone into one of two categories based on primary sexual characteristics could tell you more about how that individual thinks than knowing which of the 16 MBTI types best fit that individual.

Your version of "understanding" seems to consist of simply reinforcing stereotypes. I think we can all do without that kind of understanding.

Yes, I am stating my beliefs which have been formed based on personal experience. There were also numerous studies referenced at the bottom of the Wikipedia article if I recall correctly. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.

Don't put words in my mouth about "my version of understanding," or at least try and not to get caught up in the precision of language that I'm using. I'm raising questions on a topic that I think is important. I'm certain there are differences but I'm not sure I really fully comprehend them. That's why I created the OP.
 

stalemate

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I generally have an easier time relating to women than to men. I don't know why exactly. Part of it is that typical male interests are often not interesting to me at all and I am just "faking it" part of the time. Like if they start talking about cars... good god, just shoot me. Beyond where the gas and the key goes, what else is there to talk about? Unless we want to talk about the future of cars as a whole, I'm not interested. I don't care about what kind of engine you have in there or what the horsepower is, I really don't. I probably don't even know what you drive unless I've ridden with you a lot.

What was I talking about? Oh yeah, somehow it is just easier with women for me. So, I don't think gender is the primary thing. Maybe it is type, maybe it is something else.
 

Orangey

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Why would a categorization system of two be more helpful than one that has 16? Especially since it is not even certain which traits can legitimately be ascribed to the male or female categories. This question doesn't even make any sense.
 

highlander

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Why would a categorization system of two be more helpful than one that has 16? Especially since it is not even certain which traits can legitimately be ascribed to the male or female categories. This question doesn't even make any sense.

On reason is that gender tends to be relatively obvious whereas the 16 types are not. You don't need to guess.
 

Orangey

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On reason is that gender tends to be relatively obvious whereas the 16 types are not. You don't need to guess.

Oh, so the real question is "which is more helpful for the lazy, overly-concrete person in understanding people - type or gender?"
 

highlander

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Oh, so the real question is "which is more helpful for the lazy, overly-concrete person in understanding people - type or gender?"

And you say the question doesn't make sense?
 

Coriolis

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On reason is that gender tends to be relatively obvious whereas the 16 types are not. You don't need to guess.
Height and race are rather obvious, too, but don't really tell us much about who the person is inside. I often point out how much variation there is bound to be within each of the 16 types; there will be even more within each of the two genders. Type will thus tell us more about a person, though by no means all.
 

Salomé

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Yes, I am stating my beliefs which have been formed based on personal experience. There were also numerous studies referenced at the bottom of the Wikipedia article if I recall correctly. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.
Did you read any of them? Forgive me if I don't consider wikipedia the final word in gender studies. I recommend reading a book that covers the basic research. Here's a decent one.

I'm certain there are differences but I'm not sure I really fully comprehend them. That's why I created the OP.
How can you be certain about something that you don't comprehend? Sounds more and more like prejudice...

For F women and T men, cultural conditioning reinforces innate tendencies.
Spin it around. Culture reflects the innate tendencies of the majority. That's my point.
As for whether the various preferences are on a continuum or exclusive opposites, I have read contradictory claims. It may help to remember that T, F, S, and N are functions, while E, I, P, and J are considered attitudes.
You're wrong on both counts. Before you challenge someone, it helps to get your facts straight.
 

Coriolis

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Spin it around. Culture reflects the innate tendencies of the majority. That's my point.
Your point is merely an assertion. Culture often follows the tendencies of those in power, not necessarily the majority. See Riane Eisler's The Chalice and the Blade for some significant examples.
You're wrong on both counts. Before you challenge someone, it helps to get your facts straight.
You can consult any basic text on MBTI for the distinction between functions and attitudes. If you are aware of a different interpretation, please provide a reference so I and others can compare. Similarly, if you know that the continuum/dichotomy question has been resolved, please link details. That would be of great interest to many. Before you criticize someone else's information, be prepared to offer facts of your own.
 

highlander

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Did you read any of them? Forgive me if I don't consider wikipedia the final word in gender studies. I recommend reading a book that covers the basic research. Here's a decent one.

Hey - that looks interesting.

I think to come up with general "rules of thumb" means that you will most certainly be wrong in specific instances. That is, there are always exceptions. Lots of them. It's perfectly OK as long as you accept the imperfections.

How can you be certain about something that you don't comprehend? Sounds more and more like prejudice...

That's a reasonable question.

How much do you know about introverted intuition? :)
 

Robopop

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Oh yes, this is a good point. On the other hand, I think an INTP male and female would probably interact rather similarly with others. They rarely possess many distinctly masculine or feminine characteristics.

This is true at least for me, a friend told me I was weird in that I display neither masculine nor feminine personality traits. Not inbetween, but neither.
 

skylights

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out of curiosity, do you guys present your gender differently online?

i'm very obviously female IRL, but if i don't have a girly-oriented avatar or self-identify, i'm often mistaken for a male in chat and forums.

i doubt i'd be mistaken for an ENFP though.
 

Coriolis

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out of curiosity, do you guys present your gender differently online?

i'm very obviously female IRL, but if i don't have a girly-oriented avatar or self-identify, i'm often mistaken for a male in chat and forums.

i doubt i'd be mistaken for an ENFP though.
I have been trying to explore this in the "male or female?" thread http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35022, but this thread is getting into some related issues. I make no attempt to present myself differently online than in person, aside of withholding more personally identifying information. Very little of this is gender-related, though.
 

LunarMoon

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The effect of gender on personality would appear to depend upon the type. ESFx males act especially different from ESFx females, due to various social pressures, while this is less true for INTxs. INTxs of either gender just don’t seem to care.

What one can assume is that type transcends physiology only to a certain degree. As much as feeler men stereotypically have female tendencies, if one would take it so far, they still have a penis. So they will act differently than female feelers. Just look at this forum, you can see that. Its very clear. As do thinker females they act differently than male thinkers.
Have you guessed someone’s sex correctly without any sort of cue (screen name, avatar, etc)? Sex is notoriously difficult to guess on the Internet and if you note any patterns by any other means you’ll be extremely vulnerable to hindsight bias.

On a personal note, I don’t associate myself with my sex. I almost consider myself to be a brain in a jar that’s lucky enough to have a body to accomplish my goals.

The chief function of the body is to carry the brain around.
 
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