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  1. #121
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    My experiences are based on the itialicized last few lines, which summarize everything above it, and it happens regardless of type.
    I never said I didn't desire a connection. It's just that eventually these roles will play out.

    Men and women often perceive the same message in different ways.
    Let me be a little more clear - I'm explicitly telling you that these roles have played out in the opposite direction for me. I don't have a desire to talk about a relationship when it's going well, and I've dated guys who were unhappy at this "lack of connection".

    I agree that women are often on the "wanting more communication" half of the relationship, but my experience tells me that it is not universal. Not everyone fits the stereotypes for their gender, race, nationality, etc. Direct assessment of personality (i.e. type) is far more meaningful than relying on stereotypes, even if the stereotypes are based on real observations (note: many aren't).
    -end of thread-

  2. #122
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I agree.

    I also notice that there's a very strong trend in this thread for people whose type "aligns" with their gender to say that gender is most important, and for people whose type does not align with their gender to say that type is more important. (I'm no exception.)

    edit: if I'm not mistaken, people from both groups have supported type as the most important, but I haven't seen any female Ts or male Fs saying that gender is the most important factor. I may have missed it, though.
    That's an interesting point.

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  3. #123
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I think INTPs are weirdos regardless of gender, honestly. Maybe female INTPs "have it worse" but it's only a matter of degree.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #124
    Member hornet's Avatar
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    Well you can't erase the effect of gender.
    When man and woman meet, the bodylanguage screems acceptance or rejection on a sexual level right away.
    What type they are impact on what level the courting will operate on and of the likelyhood of chemistry besides physical attraction.
    Many a time I've been physically attracted to a woman only to find her to be some type that makes it impossible to get to know each other beyond casual sex.
    This used to bug me a lot and it took me ages to get over my crush once everything else didn't work out.

    Only relationship I've ever had that worked out for more than a week or two was a half year relationship with an INFP 1w9.
    We related a lot, but she wanted marriage and kids sooner than later. Her Si vision for our relationship scared me and I broke up.

    I guess type matters a lot in longterm relationships.
    Gender plays in mostly in the sexual realm. Mating game etc.
    In my experience type trumphs most gender stereotypes.

  5. #125
    Member Cantus Firmus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Let me be a little more clear - I'm explicitly telling you that these roles have played out in the opposite direction for me. I don't have a desire to talk about a relationship when it's going well, and I've dated guys who were unhappy at this "lack of connection".

    I agree that women are often on the "wanting more communication" half of the relationship, but my experience tells me that it is not universal. Not everyone fits the stereotypes for their gender, race, nationality, etc. Direct assessment of personality (i.e. type) is far more meaningful than relying on stereotypes, even if the stereotypes are based on real observations (note: many aren't).
    Agreed. Lists like those read as lists of the stereotypical norms to which I am supposed to conform, but don't. Also, I think most people fall somewhere in the middle between those falsely dichotomous "male" and "female" extremes. Reducing everyone to two categories reduces the meaning of those categorizations.
    5w4 9w1 4w5
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  6. #126
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    I'm starting to consider an unsubstantiated hypothesis about T and F women. That T women have higher levels of testosterone with a lower end spectrum of estrogen and F women have lower to mid-level testosterone and higher end estrogen.

    The reason I say this is because of the impacts of testosterone, where it's been documented to reduce empathy and appears to impact on the need for social dominance. Testosterone is also more interested in equity and is also more assertive/aggressive. Even neural pathway carving is heavily impacted during the puberty years, although part of this would be nurture.
    I think there are F's with very high levels of testosterone though.

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  7. #127
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Weird, I've never dated a guy who didn't want the "feminine" closeness and attention you describe. It's almost like connection is a universal human desire or something. At least if you're looking for more than a fuck buddy.
    This makes sense. If you are going to be in an intimate relationship, whether you are male or female, that involve intimacy. How you get there and end up expressing that will be influenced much more by type, with the exception of some residual gender expectations up front, e.g. women possibly waiting for men to make the first move.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I point this out because I would say type helps us understand someone more. But gender, by a strong margin, helps us "deal" with someone in day to day life. By which I mean, if we want to befriend, socialize with, convince, seduce, relate to etc etc someone it is much more helpful to know their gender than to know their type. This is not because their gender, as a trait, explains more than their type, or defines more of their personality, but because people don't fulfill the roles of ESFJs or ESTJ etc in real life, they fulfill the roles of men and women. Furthermore, they are expected to fill such roles and are aware on some level they fulfill those roles and identify with such roles. In other words, if you want to interact with someone you have to interact with the person you are supposed to think they are--man or a woman, with who that person actually is being of less direct importance.
    I couldn't disagree more. Interacting with someone based on a (likely inaccurate) social supposition or stereotype rather than who they really are as a person is a recipe for misunderstanding and in fact the root of prejudice. MB types are not roles in the same sense as gender expectations are. They are shorthand notations for how the person actually is inside; if the ESFJ "role" is a bad fit for the person, they are probably not an ESFJ.

    I fulfull many roles in my life, but none of them have much to do with being female. The same seems true of folks I interact with. Even with strangers, I will deal with them as store clerk, dentist, new neighbor, colleague's spouse, etc. Gender is at most a minor influence in how the interaction plays out, and is far less influential than type.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    My experiences are based on the itialicized last few lines, which summarize everything above it, and it happens regardless of type.
    I never said I didn't desire a connection. It's just that eventually these roles will play out.

    Men and women often perceive the same message in different ways.
    As you quoted from the OP: this reflects T/F differences much more than gender. It will mirror gender to the extent that the T/F distribution does. The experience of female Ts and male Fs shows where the real correlation is, and why/how it is a mistake to see these traits as inherently male/female.

    Quote Originally Posted by hornet View Post
    Well you can't erase the effect of gender.
    When man and woman meet, the bodylanguage screems acceptance or rejection on a sexual level right away.
    Unless one or another of them is gay. There is strong correlation between gender and sexual preference, but it is far from absolute, and the two are not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by hornet View Post
    I guess type matters a lot in longterm relationships.
    Gender plays in mostly in the sexual realm. Mating game etc.
    In my experience type trumphs most gender stereotypes.
    This seems reasonable. People will often have gender-based attractions, whether for same or opposite sex partners, and traditional male/female expectations will influence relationships of those who have internalized them sufficiently. A person's real personality will come out eventually, though, and when it does, type will describe it much better than gender.
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  8. #128
    Member hornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Unless one or another of them is gay. There is strong correlation between gender and sexual preference, but it is far from absolute, and the two are not the same.
    Well gay people do have body language too. And no matter their sexual disposition, they will use their body language to reject straight people
    of the opposite sex in the same way disinterested nongay people do. If they are disinterested in you sexually it will be shown clearly.
    So I don't see how they are special snowflakes in this regard.

    This seems reasonable. People will often have gender-based attractions, whether for same or opposite sex partners, and traditional male/female expectations will influence relationships of those who have internalized them sufficiently. A person's real personality will come out eventually, though, and when it does, type will describe it much better than gender.
    Yup you take on a gender role, I'll do the X in the relationship.
    The way you approach X will tell us all about your type.

  9. #129
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hornet View Post
    Well gay people do have body language too. And no matter their sexual disposition, they will use their body language to reject straight people
    of the opposite sex in the same way disinterested nongay people do. If they are disinterested in you sexually it will be shown clearly.
    So I don't see how they are special snowflakes in this regard.
    That should be obvious. They don't follow the traditional male/female role breakdown, as that does not accommodate same-sex relationships. I'm not gay, but from what I have read, they find the implication that someone in the relationship will take on the opposite gendered role as rather insulting, not to mention inaccurate. Yes, gays use body language just like anyone else, but it will express their individuality rather than a gender role (as it does with plenty of straight folks as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by hornet View Post
    Yup you take on a gender role, I'll do the X in the relationship.
    The way you approach X will tell us all about your type.
    You may take on a gender role. I simply take on a role. Sometimes it coincides with a traditional gender role; more often, it does not. How I approach these (non-gendered) roles is strongly affected by type, as is which roles I choose to take on to begin with. Gender has a relatively minor influence in my approach. E.g. at a formal event, I will wear an evening gown rather than a tux. The rest is relatively gender-neutral, driven by what it makes sense to do in the situation.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #130
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think there are F's with very high levels of testosterone though.
    Testosterone administration reduces empathetic behavior: A facial mimicry study

    Summary
    Although high baseline testosterone levels correlate with low empathy, there is no causal evidence for this association in humans. The present study tested the causality of this relationship by manipulating testosterone levels in a double-blind placebo controlled crossover design. 20 healthy female participants received either a sublingual administration of a single dose of testosterone or placebo on 2 days and were tested 4 h after administration. Because research has shown that facial expression mimicry is a non-obtrusive index of empathy, facial electromyography was measured in response to dynamic facial expressions of happy and angry faces. Results showed that testosterone generally decreased facial mimicry. These findings are consistent with models that assign a critical role to mimicry in the ability to develop and communicate empathy towards conspecifics, and provide a potential causal mechanism of effects of testosterone on empathy.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...06453006000734

    Fetal testosterone and empathy: Evidence from the Empathy Quotient (EQ) and the ‘‘Reading the Mind in the Eyes’’ Test

    Empathy involves an understanding of what others are thinking and feeling, and enables us to interact in
    the social world. According to the EmpathizingSystemizing (ES) theory, females on average have a
    stronger drive to empathize than males. This sex difference may in part reflect developmental differences
    in brain structure and function, which are themselves under the influence of fetal testosterone (fT).
    Previous studies have found that fT is inversely correlated with social behaviors such as eye contact in
    infancy, peer relationships in preschoolers, and mentalistic interpretation of animate motion. Male
    fetuses are exposed to higher levels of testosterone than are female fetuses. The present study
    investigates empathizing in children, as a function of amniotic measures of fT. One hundred ninety-three
    mothers of children (100 males, 93 females) aged 6 - 8 years of age completed children’s versions of the
    Empathy Quotient (EQ-C), and the children themselves were tested on ‘‘Reading the Mind in the Eyes’’
    Task (Eyes-C). All mothers had had amniocentesis during the 2nd trimester of pregnancy. There was a
    significant negative correlation between fT and scores on both measures. While empathy may be
    influenced by post-natal experience, these results suggest that pre-natal biology also plays an important
    role, mediated by androgen effects in the brain. These results also have implications for the causes of
    disabilities involving empathy, such as autism spectrum conditions, and may explain the increased rate of
    such conditions among males.
    http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com...apman_etal.pdf

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