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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    And anyway, I don't know how you can say at once that (1) Si does not function as a database and (2) that Si involves comparing immediate sensory information to memory. There can't very well be a comparison if there was not detailed information stored (like a database) from previous experience, right?
    It is just a simple distinction.

    1) Your mind is your memory store.

    2) Si is a cognitive process that scans that memory store very rapidly and compares sensory information being received against that within your mind.

    Si is not a database, it is not memory, it is a cognitive function. It looks at and compares sensory information against one though which is your memories.

    It doesn't tell you if it is right or wrong however! It is introverted perception by functionality, just like Ni.

    I took my quotes from cognitiveprocesses.com

  2. #22
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    It is just a simple distinction.

    1) Your mind is your memory store.

    2) Si is a cognitive process that scans that memory store very rapidly and compares sensory information being received against that within your mind.

    Si is not a database, it is not memory, it is a cognitive function. It looks at and compares sensory information against one though which is your memories.
    You're being overly literal. To say that Si stores information in database fashion is not to say that there is an actual, physical part of the brain called Si that stores stuff. It just means that Si plays a part in both the process of gathering and storing information AND comparing new information to memorized experience.

    From Lenore Thompson:

    Introverted Sensation gives us the will to accumulate information--names, dates, numbers, statistics, references, guidelines, and so forth--related to the things that matter to us. ... Such facts are highly selective. ... They're part of our self-experience. They define the specific nature of our passions and interests. They become our basis for taking in new data.
    In other words, if one is oriented by introverted sensation, one is compelled to pay attention to and remember a specific type of information - names, dates, numbers, statistics, etc. Details. Of course, the specific topics one chooses to focus their Si on are dependent on the interests and disposition of the user, but the form stays the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    It doesn't tell you if it is right or wrong however! It is introverted perception by functionality, just like Ni.
    Again, who is talking about right and wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I took my quotes from cognitiveprocesses.com
    So did I.
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  3. #23
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Because when people think someone is smart, introverted, and Thinking, they figure if INTP doesn't fit, INTJ is the only other option.

  4. #24
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Sounds like a small logical fallacy, but I appreciate and value Orangey's and your contributions. Internally when I read this my inner Ni goes into 'rageguy' mode.
    i think others have pointed out what i meant about the database - i understand how any Perceiving function is not the exact same as a database -

    but anyway, yeah, you're right, it is a logical fallacy - or at least, it would be, if i was trying for a logical statement.

    in jungspeak it was more of a Fi call than anything to do with logic - it's got a lot to do with having read orangey's (sorry orangey, i'm kinda using you as an example, i hope you don't mind) posts before and them seeming pretty knowledgeable, and just the realization of how personally fine-tuned all these functions can seem to be, especially introverted ones.

    you also really didn't have to mock my language usage.

  5. #25
    Member GetOffMyBiscuits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Because when people think someone is smart, introverted, and Thinking, they figure if INTP doesn't fit, INTJ is the only other option.
    so true lol

  6. #26
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    IDK. I'm pretty detail oriented. For instance, I was taking apart a centrifugal clutch and took it apart the exact way I found it. I put it back together the exact way I took it off and stopped. Something wasn't right. The back of it had various plates that fit together and while it looked right it just didn't feel right. I got the manual and looked at how it was supposed to be and it was wrong and I corrected it. Both people who took that clutch apart and back together did so without catching that error. I can get lost in those kinds of details.

    My brother is an INTJ and I have two good friends who are. I think there's a big difference and some small similarities in ISTP/INTJ's.

    My brother and my friends are more "high strung". They worry a lot more about things than I do and they like to know what to expect from people and situations beforehand. I'm more like, "We'll figure it out when we get there".

    The friends I know are a lot more generally pessimistic about life as a general philosophy. If someone hurts them it takes a lot longer for them to let go of it. They're much more sensitive than I am about stuff like that. I try to let that stuff roll off my back and move on pretty quickly.

    We are similar in that we can take control of a situation and keep things from getting derailed. We both have presence of mind to have a clear direction that we want to attain and we are decisive about enacting it.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    you also really didn't have to mock my language usage.
    I didn't have to but you did not have to mock my opinion. I'm sure you'll get over it just as I did. Fair is fair regardless of how bitter it tastes.

    The logical fallacy you applied was an Appeal to Authority.

    What you stated is 'As they are ISTP they know more because it is their type'. This is cherry picking the statement based upon authority without asking for the basis of that position.

    What I did was elude to the logical reasons I believe my own argument; because MBTI is a system based upon cognitive functions. Hopefully doing so may improve everyone's understanding of the issues at hand and to deal with those in a consistent and equitable basis and perhaps I will learn something of value also.

    If we change what exactly a 'cognitive function is' then we start to see odd behaviours in the system that are not consistent because of the base assumptions. 'Help I'm an ENFP but I like maths, I have Fi I shouldn't like maths' is a silly argument; although most ENFPs may dislike maths they are perfectly capable of it just like anyone else because all that cognitive functions are is a way of interfacing with the world and do not lead to individual actions, likes or dislikes. I hope you see the conundrum and my concern.

  8. #28
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I didn't have to but you did not have to mock my opinion. I'm sure you'll get over it just as I did. Fair is fair regardless of how bitter it tastes.

    The logical fallacy you applied was an Appeal to Authority.

    What you stated is 'As they are ISTP they know more because it is their type'. This is cherry picking the statement based upon authority without asking for the basis of that position.

    What I did was elude to the logical reasons I believe my own argument; because MBTI is a system based upon cognitive functions. Hopefully doing so may improve everyone's understanding of the issues at hand and to deal with those in a consistent and equitable basis and perhaps I will learn something of value also.

    If we change what exactly a 'cognitive function is' then we start to see odd behaviours in the system that are not consistent because of the base assumptions. 'Help I'm an ENFP but I like maths, I have Fi I shouldn't like maths' is a silly argument; although most ENFPs may dislike maths they are perfectly capable of it just like anyone else because all that cognitive functions are is a way of interfacing with the world and do not lead to individual actions, likes or dislikes. I hope you see the conundrum and my concern.
    i didn't mean to mock your opinion, i was just disagreeing i am sorry if it came off that way though, it wasn't my intention.

    i also completely agree with your last paragraph.

    but i do understand the logical fallacy - i did agree it's a fallacy in my last post - it's not that i don't recognize it. i understand that just because someone is a doctor or any other claimed authority position, with proof or not, does not automatically mean their medical diagnosis, or any other claim, is any more correct than another.

    my point was more along the lines of you were quick to shoot down someone's opinion when they are possibly in a better position to understand the subtleties and nuances of the subject, provided they've typed themselves correctly, etc. your quick dismissal sounded presumptuous to me especially given that i didn't really agree with your points. so what i meant to address, which i suppose didn't come off clearly, was that i found it frustrating that someone gave their own account and experience of something that really is rather personal, being an introverted function, and you addressed as if it had no value or truth in it - which, if they're not an ISTP, might be true - but if they are, then it matters, because it's their personal experience of that function.

    so, i guess what came off logically an "appeal to authority" fallacy was me trying to point out that opinions shouldn't be dismissed if they're pertinent, and that pertinence depends on type, hence me citing type. it wasn't just a blind "she claims she's an ISTP so she must be right."

    if that makes sense

    i probably ought to be more clear about my wording. i actually appreciate your pointing this out, because i probably do this more than i realize and i'm sure it gets misunderstood.

  9. #29
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.
    It's not the Ti alone that gives INTPs a strong orientation towards detail. It's Ti combined with Si.
    You lose.

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  10. #30
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    I think the combination of Se+Ti can mirror Te in certain situations, like ESTPs are often confused with ENTJs too. I think compared to ISTPs and INTJs, INTPs can appear to be a bit "softer", probably because of Ne and they have a more easygoing interaction style(behind the scences, informative) compared to ISTPs and INTJs(chart the course, directive).
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