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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I've never understood why people assign "detail-orientation" to SPs when it is clearly an SJ trait linked to Si. No SP I've ever known, myself included, could reasonably be called a detail-oriented person.
    The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.

    For example, I had an ISTP colleague. What used to play a game where I would 'start things off' by drawing some 'common sense' deductions of how a system was behaving and build a model. At the same time he would build it from detailed first principles. Half way through we would swap and compare notes and review then integrate it into one single comprehensive and fast model and come out with something no individual could do in a timely manner that was very much accurate.
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  2. #12
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.

    For example, I had an ISTP colleague. What used to play a game where I would 'start things off' by drawing some 'common sense' deductions of how a system was behaving and build a model. At the same time he would build it from detailed first principles. Half way through we would swap and compare notes and review then integrate it into one single comprehensive and fast model and come out with something no individual could do in a timely manner that was very much accurate.
    If this is what is meant by "detail-oriented" then I agree. It's just that I don't think what you've described here really represents the common meaning of the phrase.
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  3. #13
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chris1207 View Post
    Ergo ISTP's and INTJ's are the "people-dumb" personality types.
    I disagree with that..I find that INTPs and ISTJs are often more clueless about people, but I'm guessing that's mostly due to group vs individual dynamics and my own preference to that
    agree with Satine here, maybe it's just an ENFP thing, but i find ISTPs and INTJs to be better at understanding and accounting for people than INTPs and ISTJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The fact that someone confused Toph for an INTJ says more about their own ineptitude at recognizing types than it does with the similarity between ISTP and INTJ.
    lol true

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.
    there's a big difference between Perceiving detail orientation and Judging, though. with Ji you have a really clear idea of what you personally think - and those ideas, especially in Ti, can be really accurate to the real world - but it's not the same as having a Si database and being detail-consistent.

    i mean, no offense, but that is Orangey's type. you'd think s/he'd know.

  4. #14
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    If this is what is meant by "detail-oriented" then I agree. It's just that I don't think what you've described here really represents the common meaning of the phrase.
    Perhaps precision is a good word for Ti. Kind of shows up differently with Ne or Se, of course.

    I can agree that SPs aren't detail oriented in the SJ sense though (at least that's my experience too). On the other hand, SPs are detail oriented in a present tense fashion. Aware, alert, jumping into action with physical/tangible opportunities that present themselves, etc.. (if they want). If someone next to me was about to drop a plate, my peripheral vision might catch that and prevent it; if someone threw a frisbee in my direction without warning me, and someone said "Catch" at the last second, I just might catch it. SJs are more about covering details in terms of.. preplanning, prevention, securing, gathering a lot of facts, creating standards.. But they'd probably make good cop characters too, just for spotting things that are off in their environment. Othewise, they're less improvisational, more by the book types. The kind of cop characters that are kind of a thorn in the side to the ISTP cop characters.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    There's a big difference between Perceiving detail orientation and Judging, though. with Ji you have a really clear idea of what you personally think - and those ideas, especially in Ti, can be really accurate to the real world - but it's not the same as having a Si database and being detail-consistent.
    I mean no offence, but I believe you are misinformed. Si is a cognitive smokescreen, it does not act as a database. It instantly perceives current sensory information perceived and compares with past memory. For example: a dominant Si user looks at the moon and in effect instantly sees a face. By comparison a dominant Ni user will look at the moon and see the moon because they link with Se, then make a story up about it.

    Cognitive processes is a system to describe how you translate between the senses and the mind. S is sensory processing bias, N is creative thinking bias, T is critical thinking bias, F is instinctive choice bias. Of course, the system is quite fluffy.

    I of course would argue that there is no such thing as an 'accurate' or 'detailed' cognitive function. They have certain mental attributes, that is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i mean, no offense, but that is Orangey's type. you'd think s/he'd know.
    Sounds like a small logical fallacy, but I appreciate and value Orangey's and your contributions. Internally when I read this my inner Ni goes into 'rageguy' mode.

    Caveat
    Of course it depends on whether you believe Jung as I find 'better' and more believable or the simple proof-less systems put in place by Keirsey et al. Even Myers-Briggs used the Jungian definition and didn't believe the whole brain could be defined as 'cognitive processes'.

    The definition I prefer to work from is this:

    Si collects data in the present moment and compares it with past experiences. This process sometimes evokes the feelings associated with memory as if the subject were reliving it. Seeking to protect what is familiar, Si draws upon history to form goals and expectations about what will happen in the future.
    By comparison with Ti.

    Ti seeks precision, such as the exact word to express an idea. It notices the minute distinctions that define the essence of things, then analyzes and classifies them. Ti examines all sides of an issue, looking to solve problems while minimizing effort and risk. It uses models to root out logical inconsistency.
    Neither in my mind is more intrinsically 'right' or 'detailed' or whatever crazy absolutes you crazy crazy kids are peddling these days.

  6. #16
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm pretty sure a good place to begin answering the question in the OP is the shared communication and interaction style between ISTPs and INTJs. Both are directing and chart-the-course.
    That makes sense. Gibbs was also actually suggested as ISTJ and INFJ who I THINK are the other chart0th-course types.

    Also, I don't even think this is a close call. The fact that someone confused Toph for an INTJ says more about their own ineptitude at recognizing types than it does with the similarity between ISTP and INTJ.
    I just put it in there because it was an observation and I thought there must have been some reason for it, which may well have been the CtC thing.
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  7. #17
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    The definition I prefer to work from is this:



    By comparison with Ti.



    Neither in my mind is more intrinsically 'right' or 'detailed' or whatever crazy absolutes you crazy crazy kids are peddling these days.
    Where did you get the function descriptions from?
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  8. #18
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I mean no offence, but I believe you are misinformed. Si is a cognitive smokescreen, it does not act as a database. It instantly perceives current sensory information perceived and compares with past memory. For example: a dominant Si user looks at the moon and in effect instantly sees a face. By comparison a dominant Ni user will look at the moon and see the moon because they link with Se, then make a story up about it.

    Cognitive processes is a system to describe how you translate between the senses and the mind. S is sensory processing bias, N is creative thinking bias, T is critical thinking bias, F is instinctive choice bias. Of course, the system is quite fluffy.

    I of course would argue that there is no such thing as an 'accurate' or 'detailed' cognitive function. They have certain mental attributes, that is all.
    Well...

    Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.
    ...and...

    With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen.
    And anyway, I don't know how you can say at once that (1) Si does not function as a database and (2) that Si involves comparing immediate sensory information to memory. There can't very well be a comparison if there was not detailed information stored (like a database) from previous experience, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Sounds like a small logical fallacy, but I appreciate and value Orangey's and your contributions. Internally when I read this my inner Ni goes into 'rageguy' mode.
    I'm not saying that my perception on the matter is more important or accurate because I'm an ISTP (though I do appreciate the defense, skylights.) I'm just saying that ISTPs are not detail-oriented in the following sense:

    The term anal retentive (also anally retentive), commonly abbreviated to anal, is used conversationally to describe a person with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others, and can be carried out to the detriment of the anal-retentive person. The term derives from Freudian psychoanalysis.
    Freud theorized that children who experience conflicts during this period of time may develop "anal" personality traits, namely those associated with a child's efforts at excretory control: orderliness, stubbornness, a compulsion for control,[1] as well as a generalized interest in collecting, possessing, and retaining objects.
    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Of course it depends on whether you believe Jung as I find 'better' and more believable or the simple proof-less systems put in place by Keirsey et al. Even Myers-Briggs used the Jungian definition and didn't believe the whole brain could be defined as 'cognitive processes'.

    The definition I prefer to work from is this:



    By comparison with Ti.



    Neither in my mind is more intrinsically 'right' or 'detailed' or whatever crazy absolutes you crazy crazy kids are peddling these days.
    No one was ever talking about the rightness or wrongness of any particular function. We were talking about detail-orientation and whether it could be applied to ISTPs as a way to distinguish them from INTJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    That makes sense. Gibbs was also actually suggested as ISTJ and INFJ who I THINK are the other chart0th-course types.
    Yeah, that's correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    I just put it in there because it was an observation and I thought there must have been some reason for it, which may well have been the CtC thing.
    Right, and I said that the reason for it is that someone is hideously bad at typing (especially since I remember what was said in the Avatar thread.) It probably does have something to do with the directing/CtC similarity, though. You're right. I just took the opportunity to make a jab at the guy who suggested INTJ for Toph.
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  9. #19
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I disagree with that..I find that INTPs and ISTJs are often more clueless about people, but I'm guessing that's mostly due to group vs individual dynamics and my own preference to that
    Probably sometimes but not always. I know an INTP who has an F-like ability to understand people.
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  10. #20
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    There's always exceptions of course, but I've found that ISTPs with the Se (bodylanguage) tend to have a good read on people and INTJs tend to use NiFi to understand where people are coming from, especially at a later age. I can see though how an INTP, especially an older one would have a keen insight into people with NeTi (human behavior systems) and a splash of Fe (group dynamics), and an ISTJ uses SiTe to absorb the social rule system and store that in their database, as well as tap somewhat into that Fi to understand people somewhat similar to themselves, but I've found them to be better with 'people' and ISTPs and INTJs to be better with individuals.
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