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  1. #1
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Default Are females expected to be more SJ than males?

    My mother was an ESFJ, and just a sample of her many complaints of me when I was growing up:

    - You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
    - You're too messy
    - You're heartless
    - You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
    - You never care about housework
    - I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
    - You don't believe in religion
    - You're too critical and you think too much
    - You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
    - You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
    - Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
    - You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.

    I've gotten a lot of these complaints from other SJs in my life (except maybe the grandchildren part, lmao). I've also had SPs meeting me expecting me to be a "traditional female", but then being kind of glad that I'm not, lol.

    But my point is, males have a lot more freedom: have fun, get down and dirty, do whatever you want, you can be assertive, you're allowed to be messy.

    Agree?

    Does the whole SJ-idealized culture apply mainly to women?
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  2. #2
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say so much now than decades ago, no. There's probably an ounce of that sort of 'traditional' influence here and there, nowadays.

    It also depends on who you're associated with. If you're family is more old-fashioned, then be expected to hear more of that...

    In all honesty, I know no female in my family who is an SJ...They're all full of P-ness.

    I think it might be that some SJs expect other women to be more SJ like them...I get that from my dad a lot...but idk, just a thought.

  3. #3
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Eh, I don't think so. I think women are expected to show Fe and men Te. Being an SJ is valued in both, at least after a certain age. It sounds like your mother criticizes you for not being SFJ enough. STJs aren't exactly known for being submissive, chatty, warm, feminine and uncritical.

    My mother has a lot of those same complaints about me. Parents who fit social expectations often have a hard time understanding why their kids don't.

  4. #4
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    You're too critical
    If you are, you come by it honestly.

    "Mom, enough already? kthxbye."

    As for societal expectations of women, your mother's type will explain why it's so important.

  5. #5
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I also think women are expected to be Fe, namely, xSFJ. Most women, if you buy into those admittedly dubious statistics, are xSFJ, so that's probably why.

    I had a conversation with my mom recently in which she asserted that men are a certain way (much of which sounded like xxTPs, not surprising as my dad is ENTP and my step-dad is ISFP, and of course that is not TP, but we all know how Fi can appear "cold" to Fe), and that women are a certain way, which sounded like xSFJs. She said women are warmer, more organized, planners, and think more about people and what needs to be done practically. Men are just lost in thoughts that don't involve people and don't mean to be inconsiderate, and they are of course, messier by nature :rolli:.

    So then I said, "What about me? I sound more like the man in this scenario. I'm messy, impractical, not particularly warm, and I'm always lost in my creative thoughts."

    And then she says, "Well, that's why people think you're....different."
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  6. #6
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I also think women are expected to be Fe, namely, xSFJ. Most women, if you buy into those admittedly dubious statistics, are xSFJ, so that's probably why.

    I had a conversation with my mom recently in which she asserted that men are a certain way (much of which sounded like xxTPs, not surprising as my dad is ENTP and my step-dad is ISFP, and of course that is not TP, but we all know how Fi can appear "cold" to Fe), and that women are a certain way, which sounded like xSFJs. She said women are warmer, more organized, planners, and think more about people and what needs to be done practically. Men are just lost in thoughts that don't involve people and don't mean to be inconsiderate, and they are of course, messier by nature :rolli:.


    the thing that's funny to me is my mom is a not-very-girly SFJ, so while she's super Fe, she's not like the stereotypical mother, either. she's more laid back and natural. whereas me, i love makeup and heels, but i'm much shittier at Fe and J things.

    i also don't really experience all this stuff much with her... let's see...

    - You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
    - You're too messy
    - You're heartless
    - You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
    - You never care about housework
    - I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
    - You don't believe in religion
    - You're too critical and you think too much
    - You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
    - You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
    - Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
    - You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.
    most of her real criticism is directed at me not attending to things i should have.

    anyway, i think it's even just FJ, too. i have an ENFJ acquaintance (self-typed) who is like THE ideal housewife.

    but yeah, i think the "archetypal" couple is ISFJ wife and ESTJ husband (1950s-esque) or ESFJ wife and ESTP husband (more current)

  7. #7
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Well on the big 5 personality trait tests women score higher than men on conscientiousness, which I think is associated with judger traits in MBTI(especially SJs), women also score higher than men on agreeableness(I associate agreeableness with being informative/people focused interaction style, but it is associated with feeling in MBTI). I think xSFJ traits are typically associated with femininity and xSTP with masculinity in western culture.
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  8. #8
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Well, it's only associated with Feeling in MBTI because they only did the correlations with the four MBTI dichotomies (in which T/F was the closest analogue), and not the later added dichotomies such as direcing/informing and cooperative/pragmatic. I'm sure if they tried those, then you would get big correlations with Agreeableness and Conscientiousness, respectively.
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  9. #9
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    But my point is, males have a lot more freedom: have fun, get down and dirty, do whatever you want, you can be assertive, you're allowed to be messy.
    Missed this in the opening post the first time around.

    This is only applicable if you allow it to be so. People limit themselves, whether they conform to appeal to a greater number of potential partners or whether they fear being ostracised. But if you allow societal expectations to drive you, will you be happy being someone you're not? Caveat again, within reason.

  10. #10
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Yeah I do, but only a little bit. Note that a lot of things in the original list are more F in nature than SJ.
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