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  1. #31
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankpages View Post
    I believe what she's talking about is the use of the argument "people don't that" as a good reason why someone should not do something. People don't do it, so you shouldn't do it, case closed. Not the use of extremes like "no one".

    On the cleaning thing, I personally don't care if someone's house is cluttered (as long as it's not compeltely disgusting), I don't take it as a sign of disrespect and I don't understand how neurotic my ISFJ mother gets over it. (She fears people will take it as a sign that she "doesn't have her life together" or something, and thinks people will judge her for that). But as I got older I decided if it was important to her and it made her feel less stressed, I'd help her with it anyway. It may not affect me, but it affects her, and I can't claim I never get worked up for irrational reasons. Putting up with people's irrationalities (to a reasonable extent) is part of living with someone or having a close relationship with someone.
    That's the mature thing to do, since you can't beat it out of her.

    And you'll find that older generations hold those things more closely than today's. Not saying that it's totally eliminated- because if you have an FJ mom who installs this in her FJ daughter because FJ granny did it to her, then the cycle continues. The FJ daughter will either accept the value as her own or see it as senseless based on other values. Nowadays it's easier to have alternative values. Back then it wasn't.

  2. #32
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    My mother was an ESFJ, and just a sample of her many complaints of me when I was growing up:

    - You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
    - You're too messy
    - You're heartless
    - You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
    - You never care about housework
    - I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
    - You don't believe in religion
    - You're too critical and you think too much
    - You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
    - You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
    - Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
    - You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.

    I've gotten a lot of these complaints from other SJs in my life (except maybe the grandchildren part, lmao). I've also had SPs meeting me expecting me to be a "traditional female", but then being kind of glad that I'm not, lol.

    But my point is, males have a lot more freedom: have fun, get down and dirty, do whatever you want, you can be assertive, you're allowed to be messy.

    Agree?

    Does the whole SJ-idealized culture apply mainly to women?
    I could only picture my ISTJ mother (who clings very hard to many traditional values) saying about three of the 12 things listed (really, only the religion and messiness/housework ones.) My ISFJ father, however, has said around 10 of those 12 things to me before. I would therefore be inclined to say that, if these types of things were important to anyone, they would most likely be important to an SFJ, not SJs in general.
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  3. #33
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    That's not tradition, that's common decency.

    The only pass I'll give you is if her definition of messy means putting things in order vs eliminating odors, junk and dirt. Depending on who it is, I'll leave things in disarray because I'm comfortable with the person. But strangers or newer people will see a more put together house, not because of tradition, but because of respect.
    That was my mother's definition of "messy" - 'clean' disorganization. I can't do filth either, it grosses me out. Plus, I really only had a problem with cleaning all day if I had more important things to do, like study for finals or work on my start-up business. It just seemed inefficient. And since I'm never home, housekeeping is the very last of my priorities. However, now that I'm living with roommates, I created an arrangement where I get maid service...free.

    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Most women talk like that. They use extremes- all or nothing, always or never- especially when frustrated. I'm thinking of past girlfriends and females I know of all types, and most act like that. You just notice it in SJs, or those you are erroneously typing as SJs because you want to believe that they are SJs.
    Nah, I've heard other types exaggerate like that. It's just that SJs way overrepresent who I hear that from. And I'm talking about people I know well enough to be quite sure that they're SJs, going by the extroversion of their preferred T/F function and their consistent preference of Si. Not to mention their dichotomy for N/S and J/P.

    I'm not trying to pick on SJs here, but I've been surrounded with them growing up (justifiably, as they're a sizable chunk of the population), so I've got first-hand experience of their ways.

    (And truthfully, I get along much better with STJs than SFJs... not sure if it's the Te in common or what.)
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Coco's Avatar
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    Not SJ, just J in general.
    I once had a teacher who checked all the boys lockers to tell them to organize it and she didn't check the girls because we are girls and girls are organized. xD I know you can be a J without being clean, but this reminded me of that. xD

  5. #35
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    My mother was an ESFJ, and just a sample of her many complaints of me when I was growing up:

    - You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
    - You're too messy
    - You're heartless
    - You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
    - You never care about housework
    - I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
    - You don't believe in religion
    - You're too critical and you think too much
    - You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
    - You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
    - Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
    - You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.

    I've gotten a lot of these complaints from other SJs in my life (except maybe the grandchildren part, lmao). I've also had SPs meeting me expecting me to be a "traditional female", but then being kind of glad that I'm not, lol.

    But my point is, males have a lot more freedom: have fun, get down and dirty, do whatever you want, you can be assertive, you're allowed to be messy.

    Agree?

    Does the whole SJ-idealized culture apply mainly to women?
    No. men are also asked to "be a man," "be the boss," and the like. Women are expected to be ISFJ and men are expected to be ESTJ, because that's the most common type for each, and Si users (particularly baby boomer Si users and earlier) tend to have a sharp sense of normality.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    I think FJ before SJ, for a woman, in most people's ideals
    The reason why I added ISFP to ISFJ is because I think some men idealize a girl who is fun and sexy who isn't going to argue with them too much about ideas, basically be a "good time girl." I've worked in the adult industry for WAY TOO LONG to think that all men sit around fantasizing about SFJs. If this was the truth, a lot of famous sex symbols wouldn't be as popular as they are....yes, I realize that some of them are ESFP, but in reality, the ESFP would probably talk too much to be "ideal."

    I know this sounds like a really mean stereotyping of ISFJ and ISFP women, but I'm just naming the ideals that society (read: men, in the sense of the general populace) project on to women. Sadly, it's often not for the woman to be her own person with strong opinions and radical ideas or a big personality. That's a bitch, amiright?

  7. #37
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Males take alot more freedom. It is there for women, too; in far too many cases, they are just too reticent to take it.
    eh. metaphor voiced something like this too.

    women - the vast majority of women - tend to be more social, if only because of our differing stress responses (fight/flight and tend/befriend). that means more social implications for us when we go "astray", so to speak. we generally face more negative consequences from the social realm and have more to lose.

    and i mean, just off the bat - look at all the places in the world men can go that women can't. i'm really interested in middle eastern culture, but i can't travel there alone. not because i'm reticent, but because i don't want to get arrested. what about the women in that society? yes, maybe if every woman stood up and threatened the men that they would be treated fairly or they were waging a rebellion, things would get better, but they hardly have the ability to begin to coordinate, given the restrictions.

    plus as a personal example, i'm not taken as seriously by older males as men my age are - i've had to prove myself against male peers enough times to know this - so i have to fight harder. it's not always that we're not taking, it's that people don't want to give. and i imagine it'd be harder to see that as a male, because you're not on the short end of the stick - just like i'm sure i don't see as much racial prejudice because i'm white in a majority-white culture.


    Most women talk like that. They use extremes- all or nothing, always or never- especially when frustrated. I'm thinking of past girlfriends and females I know of all types, and most act like that.
    this seems not correct. i don't have proof to back that up, but it seems that way. it just doesn't make any sense. why would most women talk like this? i also don't really see it amongst my friends or family, but maybe i'm biased and just can't see it.

    also, look at the stereotypes. a woman who is an F is "over-emotional." a male who is an F is usually "charismatic" or "avant-garde" - and yes, he can experience bad stereotypes too, but again, women are more socially inclined than men, and therefore are more subject to ostracization. this isn't to say that women can't be lone wolves, but just think of what images a "lone wolf" woman conjures versus a "lone wolf" man. the woman is tough, rebelling, kicks ass... and should eventually find a man to tame her and settle down. the man is tough, rebelling, kicks ass... and is strong and respected regardless of what his relationships are like. he eclipses the woman. he doesn't need to be subdued. men are also just seen as more natural, better leaders, if only because all the literature we read and stuff we grow up on tends to show men in high positions. which means that women who want to be leaders have a harder time - and that men who don't want to be leaders get chastised for it.

    sucks, either way. all we can do is fight dumb stereotypes for both genders.

  8. #38
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    The reason why I added ISFP to ISFJ is because I think some men idealize a girl who is fun and sexy who isn't going to argue with them too much about ideas, basically be a "good time girl." I've worked in the adult industry for WAY TOO LONG to think that all men sit around fantasizing about SFJs. If this was the truth, a lot of famous sex symbols wouldn't be as popular as they are....yes, I realize that some of them are ESFP, but in reality, the ESFP would probably talk too much to be "ideal."

    I know this sounds like a really mean stereotyping of ISFJ and ISFP women, but I'm just naming the ideals that society (read: men, in the sense of the general populace) project on to women. Sadly, it's often not for the woman to be her own person with strong opinions and radical ideas or a big personality. That's a bitch, amiright?

    Don't tell me you are the receptionist............

    I think the good time girl (SPs) are a much more younger person's ideals, and as you get older and more responsible, the SJ traits are deemed more valuable.

    Personally, I don't want a girl who's going to sit there and stare at me. I, for one, like some good mental stimulation. I like somebody who can challenge me intellectually- not in a battle, but make me think, help me to grow and change my outlook. I won't get that with a yes woman. That's how you get my attention. Good looks and a bangin body are a dime a dozen.

    Ideally I'd love a ExFP woman with her stuff together.

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