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  1. #1
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Default Logically grounded values - Ti or Fi?

    Kay guys, sorry if I've been going on too long, but I'm still kind of confused about the possibility that I am INFP. And my confusion is this. In type descriptions, functions and such, I keep reading that Ti is analytical and searces for logic and truth, while Fi is subjective and searches for meaning and creates values. But what if you have strong levels of both? I analyse, criticise, find holes in ideas and create logical deductions from information, but from what I see, when I take it apart, I see things, possibly somewhat subjectively, though they seem mostly logically, that are pointless, that cause problems and such, usually attitudes, movements or behaviour, and I form values against these things (and for things that seem to create overall positive effects). I prefer to be impresonal and act on logic, and my values SEEM mostly impersonal and can change somewhat overtime if evidence against them is produced. But this is supposedly an area INTPs have very little interest in. So can logic and value systems run alongside each other? Can an INTP have strong convictions and and and/or an INFP base their values on logical reasoning? These 2 functions are supposed to be direct opposites, but I am somewhat in the dark (due to lack of information) about why they must be.

    My Fi traits:
    I value friendship a lot
    I have often strong opinions (though usually based more on what makes sense and the world as a whole rather than my personal experience)
    I like to be emotionally supportive of those I am close to when it does not strongly contradict with my logic

    My Ti traits:
    I prefer being impersonal and analytical observation, and am often analytically inquisitive
    I treat most situations from an objective standpoint to be criticised and sometimes worked on, including myself
    I am not usually quick to draw conclusions based on how I feel
    I am often considered insensitive or pedantic due to a need for truth and correctness and to not allow someones emotions to rule them if it will lead to a worse situation.

    I am really very confused about my type and the differences between Ti and Fi, as unlike the S and N functions and Te, Fe, there doesn't seem to be ENTIRELY opposing sides. Unless of course I am wrong and have gotten deeply confused and made awful misinterpretations somewhere.
    JiNe
    Ti | Fi | Ne | Si | Te | Ni | Fe | Se
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    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  2. #2
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    I know someone who I think is INTP (he can't decide if he's INTP or INTJ) but I'm pretty sure he's INTP and that his PhD in Philosophy is actually supported by a strong Ti, and many of his social/political beliefs seem very Fe to me...he's a very kind person, but I don't think he's an NF. In fact, I think the older he's gotten the more Fe he's become, which makes sense with INTP having Fe as inferior function. He's almost authoritarian in his beliefs (We Know What Is Objectively Morally Correct For The Collective You ...sort of thing) so I'm thinking it's Fe, yeah.

    I dunno if this helps you at all with your own dilemma.

  3. #3
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Maybe some of it is Fe, including my strong sense of caring for those close to me, but value-wise, I wasn't aware it was a strong factor. I thought Fe was mainly based on how our emotions relate to others, our likelihood to act on current emotions, the drive to please others etc.
    JiNe
    Ti | Fi | Ne | Si | Te | Ni | Fe | Se
    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  4. #4
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I ran across these "tandem" function descriptions last night.

    The answer to your question would be that neither is more ethical than the other.

    Cognitive Processes and Tandem Dynamics


    Introverted Thinking (Ti/Fe)
    We can get impressive results using introverted Thinking in tandem with extraverted Feeling. We might draw on a nugget of reasoning or theoretical framework to make adjustments for the welfare of others or the good of the group. Applying principles of human behavior and applying leverage at key points can help us to manage divergent values, feelings, and opinions. We might nurture relationships with a network of respected peers while clarifying a framework, or disclose personal data to gain clarity and precision for a topic. Or we might feel passionate about the value of people everywhere learning to use a particular framework as a problem-solving tool to improve human relationships. We communicate this framework to others as a helpful gift.


    Extraverted Feeling (Fe/Ti)
    We can get impressive results using extraverted Feeling in tandem with introverted Thinking. We can connect with others by following guidelines about appropriate behavior. We may follow principles of fair play or the Golden Rule—a general framework for all our transactions with others. We might locate leverage points in a situation to help everyone get what they need in the most affirming and fair way possible, or leverage our range of social contacts to get help or to interact with someone we wouldn’t normally have access to. Or we might mediate a dispute between two parties: we observe from multiple angles to fully see every side and give a fair hearing as we fit their claims with a framework to arrive at a decision.

  5. #5
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I ran across these "tandem" function descriptions last night.

    The answer to your question would be that neither is more ethical than the other.

    Cognitive Processes and Tandem Dynamics


    Introverted Thinking (Ti/Fe)
    We can get impressive results using introverted Thinking in tandem with extraverted Feeling. We might draw on a nugget of reasoning or theoretical framework to make adjustments for the welfare of others or the good of the group. Applying principles of human behavior and applying leverage at key points can help us to manage divergent values, feelings, and opinions. We might nurture relationships with a network of respected peers while clarifying a framework, or disclose personal data to gain clarity and precision for a topic. Or we might feel passionate about the value of people everywhere learning to use a particular framework as a problem-solving tool to improve human relationships. We communicate this framework to others as a helpful gift.


    Extraverted Feeling (Fe/Ti)
    We can get impressive results using extraverted Feeling in tandem with introverted Thinking. We can connect with others by following guidelines about appropriate behavior. We may follow principles of fair play or the Golden Rule—a general framework for all our transactions with others. We might locate leverage points in a situation to help everyone get what they need in the most affirming and fair way possible, or leverage our range of social contacts to get help or to interact with someone we wouldn’t normally have access to. Or we might mediate a dispute between two parties: we observe from multiple angles to fully see every side and give a fair hearing as we fit their claims with a framework to arrive at a decision.
    So my 'logical value system' is basically Ti being used in conjunction with Fe to see things from both a personal and logical perspective?
    JiNe
    Ti | Fi | Ne | Si | Te | Ni | Fe | Se
    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  6. #6
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Why does a function have to be on the opposite side of another, or have an opposite? Just because we humans love symmetry doesn't mean that everything needs to be that way.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

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    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Why does a function have to be on the opposite side of another, or have an opposite? Just because we humans love symmetry doesn't mean that everything needs to be that way.
    I don't know. Supposedly because T and F are whether we are objective or subjective, Ti anf Fi (and Fe and Te) must be opposite in proportion. Though I have noticed in people listing their functions this isn't the case. but I don't know if that's because they actually have those functions or if it's a flaw in the testing system.
    JiNe
    Ti | Fi | Ne | Si | Te | Ni | Fe | Se
    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  8. #8
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    The thing is.. your Functions are just preferences, they are not absolute.
    People don't seem to realize using one doesn't exclude the other.

    I am right handed. But I use my left as well, often in conjunction with my right hand and sometimes I will even use my left hand instead of my right. there are times when I will get my thigh in there to help me hold things up.. or I will use my leg and foot to reach something.. or hold something in my mouth

    Such is also the way with functions.

  9. #9
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    I thought you were INTJ....?

    I'd say Ti is more logical than Fi.
    Fi is based on values (so, subjective), Ti is based on objective reasoning.

  10. #10
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    I thought you were INTJ....?
    I'd say Ti is more logical than Fi.
    Fi is based on values (so, subjective), Ti is based on objective reasoning.
    Well, more like the things that can drive Fi assumptions (that they then can apply sound reasoning to) are the sorts of things that Ti tries to remove from its list assumptions due to what it perceives as bias.

    Fi sees as value = Ti sees as bias

    But both can reason very well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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