Logically grounded values - Ti or Fi?

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Kay guys, sorry if I've been going on too long, but I'm still kind of confused about the possibility that I am INFP. And my confusion is this. In type descriptions, functions and such, I keep reading that Ti is analytical and searces for logic and truth, while Fi is subjective and searches for meaning and creates values. But what if you have strong levels of both? I analyse, criticise, find holes in ideas and create logical deductions from information, but from what I see, when I take it apart, I see things, possibly somewhat subjectively, though they seem mostly logically, that are pointless, that cause problems and such, usually attitudes, movements or behaviour, and I form values against these things (and for things that seem to create overall positive effects). I prefer to be impresonal and act on logic, and my values SEEM mostly impersonal and can change somewhat overtime if evidence against them is produced. But this is supposedly an area INTPs have very little interest in. So can logic and value systems run alongside each other? Can an INTP have strong convictions and and and/or an INFP base their values on logical reasoning? These 2 functions are supposed to be direct opposites, but I am somewhat in the dark (due to lack of information) about why they must be.

My Fi traits:
I value friendship a lot
I have often strong opinions (though usually based more on what makes sense and the world as a whole rather than my personal experience)
I like to be emotionally supportive of those I am close to when it does not strongly contradict with my logic

My Ti traits:
I prefer being impersonal and analytical observation, and am often analytically inquisitive
I treat most situations from an objective standpoint to be criticised and sometimes worked on, including myself
I am not usually quick to draw conclusions based on how I feel
I am often considered insensitive or pedantic due to a need for truth and correctness and to not allow someones emotions to rule them if it will lead to a worse situation.

I am really very confused about my type and the differences between Ti and Fi, as unlike the S and N functions and Te, Fe, there doesn't seem to be ENTIRELY opposing sides. Unless of course I am wrong and have gotten deeply confused and made awful misinterpretations somewhere.

 

[Thalassa]

I know someone who I think is INTP (he can't decide if he's INTP or INTJ) but I'm pretty sure he's INTP and that his PhD in Philosophy is actually supported by a strong Ti, and many of his social/political beliefs seem very Fe to me...he's a very kind person, but I don't think he's an NF. In fact, I think the older he's gotten the more Fe he's become, which makes sense with INTP having Fe as inferior function. He's almost authoritarian in his beliefs (We Know What Is Objectively Morally Correct For The Collective You ...sort of thing) so I'm thinking it's Fe, yeah.

I dunno if this helps you at all with your own dilemma.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Maybe some of it is Fe, including my strong sense of caring for those close to me, but value-wise, I wasn't aware it was a strong factor. I thought Fe was mainly based on how our emotions relate to others, our likelihood to act on current emotions, the drive to please others etc.

 

[KDude]

I ran across these "tandem" function descriptions last night.

The answer to your question would be that neither is more ethical than the other.

Cognitive Processes and Tandem Dynamics


Introverted Thinking (Ti/Fe)
We can get impressive results using introverted Thinking in tandem with extraverted Feeling. We might draw on a nugget of reasoning or theoretical framework to make adjustments for the welfare of others or the good of the group. Applying principles of human behavior and applying leverage at key points can help us to manage divergent values, feelings, and opinions. We might nurture relationships with a network of respected peers while clarifying a framework, or disclose personal data to gain clarity and precision for a topic. Or we might feel passionate about the value of people everywhere learning to use a particular framework as a problem-solving tool to improve human relationships. We communicate this framework to others as a helpful gift.

Extraverted Feeling (Fe/Ti)
We can get impressive results using extraverted Feeling in tandem with introverted Thinking. We can connect with others by following guidelines about appropriate behavior. We may follow principles of fair play or the Golden Rule—a general framework for all our transactions with others. We might locate leverage points in a situation to help everyone get what they need in the most affirming and fair way possible, or leverage our range of social contacts to get help or to interact with someone we wouldn’t normally have access to. Or we might mediate a dispute between two parties: we observe from multiple angles to fully see every side and give a fair hearing as we fit their claims with a framework to arrive at a decision.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

I ran across these "tandem" function descriptions last night.

The answer to your question would be that neither is more ethical than the other.

Cognitive Processes and Tandem Dynamics


Introverted Thinking (Ti/Fe)
We can get impressive results using introverted Thinking in tandem with extraverted Feeling. We might draw on a nugget of reasoning or theoretical framework to make adjustments for the welfare of others or the good of the group. Applying principles of human behavior and applying leverage at key points can help us to manage divergent values, feelings, and opinions. We might nurture relationships with a network of respected peers while clarifying a framework, or disclose personal data to gain clarity and precision for a topic. Or we might feel passionate about the value of people everywhere learning to use a particular framework as a problem-solving tool to improve human relationships. We communicate this framework to others as a helpful gift.

Extraverted Feeling (Fe/Ti)
We can get impressive results using extraverted Feeling in tandem with introverted Thinking. We can connect with others by following guidelines about appropriate behavior. We may follow principles of fair play or the Golden Rule—a general framework for all our transactions with others. We might locate leverage points in a situation to help everyone get what they need in the most affirming and fair way possible, or leverage our range of social contacts to get help or to interact with someone we wouldn’t normally have access to. Or we might mediate a dispute between two parties: we observe from multiple angles to fully see every side and give a fair hearing as we fit their claims with a framework to arrive at a decision.

So my 'logical value system' is basically Ti being used in conjunction with Fe to see things from both a personal and logical perspective?

 

[William K]

Why does a function have to be on the opposite side of another, or have an opposite? Just because we humans love symmetry doesn't mean that everything needs to be that way.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Why does a function have to be on the opposite side of another, or have an opposite? Just because we humans love symmetry doesn't mean that everything needs to be that way.

I don't know. Supposedly because T and F are whether we are objective or subjective, Ti anf Fi (and Fe and Te) must be opposite in proportion. Though I have noticed in people listing their functions this isn't the case. but I don't know if that's because they actually have those functions or if it's a flaw in the testing system.

 

[Arclight]

The thing is.. your Functions are just preferences, they are not absolute.
People don't seem to realize using one doesn't exclude the other.

I am right handed. But I use my left as well, often in conjunction with my right hand and sometimes I will even use my left hand instead of my right. there are times when I will get my thigh in there to help me hold things up.. or I will use my leg and foot to reach something.. or hold something in my mouth

Such is also the way with functions.

 

[alcea rosea]

I thought you were INTJ....?

I'd say Ti is more logical than Fi.
Fi is based on values (so, subjective), Ti is based on objective reasoning.

 

[Totenkindly]

I thought you were INTJ....?
I'd say Ti is more logical than Fi.
Fi is based on values (so, subjective), Ti is based on objective reasoning.

Well, more like the things that can drive Fi assumptions (that they then can apply sound reasoning to) are the sorts of things that Ti tries to remove from its list assumptions due to what it perceives as bias.

Fi sees as value = Ti sees as bias

But both can reason very well.

 

[JocktheMotie]

My Fi traits:
I value friendship a lot You're a normal human being.
I have often strong opinions (though usually based more on what makes sense and the world as a whole rather than my personal experience)INTPs don't have strong opinions?
I like to be emotionally supportive of those I am close to when it does not strongly contradict with my logic
Fe can also do this.

Everything I've read from you and your posts so far indicates INTP, to me.

 

[Moiety]

I think my Fi is bound by logic. Usually my values start with idealistic Fi premises, and then I use Ti to make them logically coherent with everything I do.

 

[William K]

If something is important to me then I'm passionate about it.

Isn't this logic?
important(X) -> passionate(X)

 

[Eric B]

Kay guys, sorry if I've been going on too long, but I'm still kind of confused about the possibility that I am INFP. And my confusion is this. In type descriptions, functions and such, I keep reading that Ti is analytical and searces for logic and truth, while Fi is subjective and searches for meaning and creates values. But what if you have strong levels of both? I analyse, criticise, find holes in ideas and create logical deductions from information, but from what I see, when I take it apart, I see things, possibly somewhat subjectively, though they seem mostly logically, that are pointless, that cause problems and such, usually attitudes, movements or behaviour, and I form values against these things (and for things that seem to create overall positive effects). I prefer to be impresonal and act on logic, and my values SEEM mostly impersonal and can change somewhat overtime if evidence against them is produced. But this is supposedly an area INTPs have very little interest in. So can logic and value systems run alongside each other? Can an INTP have strong convictions and and and/or an INFP base their values on logical reasoning? These 2 functions are supposed to be direct opposites, but I am somewhat in the dark (due to lack of information) about why they must be.

My Fi traits:
I value friendship a lot
I have often strong opinions (though usually based more on what makes sense and the world as a whole rather than my personal experience)
I like to be emotionally supportive of those I am close to when it does not strongly contradict with my logic

My Ti traits:
I prefer being impersonal and analytical observation, and am often analytically inquisitive
I treat most situations from an objective standpoint to be criticised and sometimes worked on, including myself
I am not usually quick to draw conclusions based on how I feel
I am often considered insensitive or pedantic due to a need for truth and correctness and to not allow someones emotions to rule them if it will lead to a worse situation.

I am really very confused about my type and the differences between Ti and Fi, as unlike the S and N functions and Te, Fe, there doesn't seem to be ENTIRELY opposing sides. Unless of course I am wrong and have gotten deeply confused and made awful misinterpretations somewhere.

Been throuigh this mill myself.
The biggest part of the problem is that Fi descriptions have been way oversimplified and overgeneralized.

Everyone has "subjective opinions" and values.
It is also a general Ji trait.
Valuing friendship also ties to the Interaction Style (NP="informative"=people focused).

So you sound like a definite INTP to me.

 

[Aleksei]

Kay guys, sorry if I've been going on too long, but I'm still kind of confused about the possibility that I am INFP. And my confusion is this. In type descriptions, functions and such, I keep reading that Ti is analytical and searces for logic and truth, while Fi is subjective and searches for meaning and creates values. But what if you have strong levels of both? I analyse, criticise, find holes in ideas and create logical deductions from information, but from what I see, when I take it apart, I see things, possibly somewhat subjectively, though they seem mostly logically, that are pointless, that cause problems and such, usually attitudes, movements or behaviour, and I form values against these things (and for things that seem to create overall positive effects).

You're INTP. Basically the entirety of Jungian functional theory is actually based on values (or more specifically, on attitudes) on which you base your thinking process and behavior. The difference between Ti and Fi is that Ti users base their outlook on life on frameworks of logical deduction (categorical imperatives, basically), whereas Fi types base their values on emotion or ethics -- what they feel in their gut is right or wrong in a given situation.

I suggest reading the Lenore Thomson exagenesis wiki. It's mostly spot-on with regards to how the function attitudes work, except for two big complaints I have: She appears clueless as to how Fe and Te types act (outright makes Te logic look retarded, really), and she paints Fi in an altogether too wuvvy light.

 

[Aleksei]

I thought you were INTJ....?

I'd say Ti is more logical than Fi.
Fi is based on values (so, subjective), Ti is based on objective reasoning.

Ti is not based on objective reasoning -- Te is. Ti is based on subjective reasoning.

 

[Stanton Moore]

Ti is not based on objective reasoning -- Te is. Ti is based on subjective reasoning.

Yep. Fi is just as 'logical' as Ti. they are just different lenses through which to few problems. People use both most of the time because most analysis contains some degree of pre-supposition that is based on one's prior experiences. This is what we refer to as 'values'. Any problem that related to human beings uses Fi and Ti in this way.

It seems that many Ti doms think that their solutions are purely logical, but they are always based on assumptions that are largely subconscious...

 

[Aleksei]

Yep. Fi is just as 'logical' as Ti. they are just different lenses through which to few problems. People use both most of the time because most analysis contains some degree of pre-supposition that is based on one's prior experiences. This is what we refer to as 'values'. Any problem that related to human beings uses Fi and Ti in this way.

It seems that many Ti doms think that their solutions are purely logical, but they are always based on assumptions that are largely subconscious...

I'm not sure I agree. Ti is actually defined by arriving at internal values and axioms through exploring the logical implications of them, rather than internal assumptions. Basically, Fi works from the inside out (it makes a supposition about how the world works or should work and goes from there), whereas Ti works from the outside in (by analyzing the world it arrives to a conclusion about how it works or should work). Ti types do tend to have some ethical suppositions, but those are generally Fe-driven -- based on what society, or the Ti user's peers at minimum, consider important.

 

[Poki]

I thought you were INTJ....?

I'd say Ti is more logical than Fi.
Fi is based on values (so, subjective), Ti is based on objective reasoning.

I would say that within me Ti is based off of objective perception, but is actually subjective reasoning

I'm not sure I agree. Ti is actually defined by arriving at internal values and axioms through exploring the logical implications of them, rather than internal assumptions. Basically, Fi works from the inside out (it makes a supposition about how the world works or should work and goes from there), whereas Ti works from the outside in (by analyzing the world it arrives to a conclusion about how it works or should work). Ti types do tend to have some ethical suppositions, but those are generally Fe-driven -- based on what society, or the Ti user's peers at minimum, consider important.

So what does i stand for in regards to "Fi is inside-outside and Ti is outside-inside"? How does internal fit in? Does that mean Te and Fe is neither inside nor outside or do they flip? Fe is outside-inside and Te is inside-outside? Being a Ti dominant I need to understand how your system works logically

To me using your words - Ti is how the world works, Fi is how the world feels. Te is how the world should work, Fe is how the world should feel.

 

[Stanton Moore]

I'm not sure I agree. Ti is actually defined by arriving at internal values and axioms through exploring the logical implications of them, rather than internal assumptions. Basically, Fi works from the inside out (it makes a supposition about how the world works or should work and goes from there), whereas Ti works from the outside in (by analyzing the world it arrives to a conclusion about how it works or should work). Ti types do tend to have some ethical suppositions, but those are generally Fe-driven -- based on what society, or the Ti user's peers at minimum, consider important.

Give me an example.