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Logically grounded values - Ti or Fi?

OrangeAppled

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Fi creates an internal framework of what is ideal, and Ti creates one for what is logical. Both deal in terms of concepts more than what works in reality. Although Ti has the advantage of dealing in realms that can be proven more easily in the real world, which adds a dimension of objectivity that Fi does not have because of what it concerns itself with. Both are working off of principles though - where these come from is debatable. Jung suggests the unconscious mind, which brings forth archetypes (something like "mental instincts") as the basis for the Ti-dom's logic or the Fi-dom's values. So there is an almost innate basis for truth, be it logical or moral, for each, and the individual interprets these images into something able to be understood rationally - concepts & frameworks & ideas & values, etc. Everyone has this, but Ti & Fi doms are most in touch with this aspect of it.

Using Ne is how both INxPs will take in information and compare it to their reasoning so as not to be in a bubble- morbidly obsessed with your own thoughts/feelings without regard for the external world. Both Ti & Fi types who are not using Ne well & are in a bubble will seem very biased and out of touch with reality. When I think of ludicrous conspiracy theories, I think of an unbalanced INTP ;). There is such a bias for their internal theory they've denied any external evidence to the contrary and seem delusional.

Jung on Ti said:
introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its fantasy image in freedom. In such a case, it will be impossible for the presented idea to deny its origin from the dim archaic image

So what does this have to do with the OP? I see that your thinking is turned inward - you need logical consistency in your ideas and others' ideas. Your feeling is turned outward - it's focused on your relationships with people and adjusts to the external need. Your Ti is guiding your Fe basically - your values have to be consistent with your logical framework. They don't exist for the sake of themselves, they exist because it makes sense to have good relations with people. That furthers Ti's aims in many ways. However your logical analysis is not to serve an external purpose.

In an INFP, Te is used to support Fi. We make logical judgments based on external criteria, but we tend to focus on facts that support our idealistic feeling theories. Our understanding of what makes sense logically will adjust to the external facts once we see they are solidly proven in reality; but our acceptance of some facts as unchangeable can be in terms of how they relate to our ideals. However, our ideals are formed for their own sake. They do not need to be validated by anything external.

And please note I'm talking about the Ji & Je functions without discussing the Pe & Pi functions, which makes them sound a bit extreme (there's that bubble again).
 

Aleksei

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Where'd you get Jung's Ti description?
 

Salomé

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Oh Jeez, why does it even matter?
The more I think/talk about functions, the more I think it's all BS.
 

OrangeAppled

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tl;dr, but thanks. :laugh:

I assure you, it is there :coffee:.

But actually, if you scroll down about 2/3 of the way, you'll find the Introverted Type section; Introverted Thinking and the Introverted Thinking Type are the first discussed after that. I navigate that page pretty easily. :tongue:
 

Aleksei

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Oh it's not hard to navigate. It's just a wee bit too long.

EDIT: I was actually asking for your source so I could read what Jung had to say on the other functions, but then I saw that overflow of text... :horor:
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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The idea that both INFPs and INTPs can have strong logically based ideals kind of makes it harder to tell them apart! But I will assume you are right and that I am INTP.
 

redacted

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Fe/Ti might look like a more logical value system because the values are based on what is currently happening (which Ti checks for consistency with the internal standard).

I think of Fe as a giant list of inter-related heuristics for dealing with situations morally. Whereas Fi is more like a list of ideals -- the external situations are analyzed in light of the ideals.

Fe will make sure to check the environment as completely as possible before judging. Fi will make sure to check the inner ideals as completely as possible before judging. The reason Fe looks more logical is that they can point to things in the world to ground their judgments.

(Same reasoning is true in reverse for Te/Ti)
 

Poki

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Agreed. Too much thinking about one's self tends to make one stupid and selfish

*ponders* So what does that mean about Ns who have an N bias?:shock: (loops)
 

Robopop

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Kay guys, sorry if I've been going on too long, but I'm still kind of confused about the possibility that I am INFP. And my confusion is this. In type descriptions, functions and such, I keep reading that Ti is analytical and searces for logic and truth, while Fi is subjective and searches for meaning and creates values. But what if you have strong levels of both? I analyse, criticise, find holes in ideas and create logical deductions from information, but from what I see, when I take it apart, I see things, possibly somewhat subjectively, though they seem mostly logically, that are pointless, that cause problems and such, usually attitudes, movements or behaviour, and I form values against these things (and for things that seem to create overall positive effects). I prefer to be impresonal and act on logic, and my values SEEM mostly impersonal and can change somewhat overtime if evidence against them is produced. But this is supposedly an area INTPs have very little interest in. So can logic and value systems run alongside each other? Can an INTP have strong convictions and and and/or an INFP base their values on logical reasoning? These 2 functions are supposed to be direct opposites, but I am somewhat in the dark (due to lack of information) about why they must be.

My Fi traits:
I value friendship a lot
I have often strong opinions (though usually based more on what makes sense and the world as a whole rather than my personal experience)
I like to be emotionally supportive of those I am close to when it does not strongly contradict with my logic

My Ti traits:
I prefer being impersonal and analytical observation, and am often analytically inquisitive
I treat most situations from an objective standpoint to be criticised and sometimes worked on, including myself
I am not usually quick to draw conclusions based on how I feel
I am often considered insensitive or pedantic due to a need for truth and correctness and to not allow someones emotions to rule them if it will lead to a worse situation.

I am really very confused about my type and the differences between Ti and Fi, as unlike the S and N functions and Te, Fe, there doesn't seem to be ENTIRELY opposing sides. Unless of course I am wrong and have gotten deeply confused and made awful misinterpretations somewhere.

Your Fi traits might be Fe motivated, have you thought about that. Fi ethics come from a personal source and Fe ethics come from a external source where the culture/or group you're emotionally attached to collectively agrees on the standard. Like to Fi, Fe can seem fake and shallow and to Fe, Fi can look selfish and unrealistic. It sounds to me like you might be a INTP with strong Fe. The one about having strong opinions can really be both Ji functions(and the way you described it sounds like Ti). And most people in general value some kind of social contact/companionship, whether T or F.
 

alcea rosea

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I thought you were INTJ....? :thinking:

I'd say Ti is more logical than Fi.
Fi is based on values (so, subjective), Ti is based on objective reasoning.

Well, more like the things that can drive Fi assumptions (that they then can apply sound reasoning to) are the sorts of things that Ti tries to remove from its list assumptions due to what it perceives as bias.

Fi sees as value = Ti sees as bias

But both can reason very well.

Ti is not based on objective reasoning -- Te is. Ti is based on subjective reasoning.

Because my post of difference between Ti and Fi was shown to be wrong or incosistent or illogical, :laugh:, I would say that based on my own "I feel people" experience INTP's are a great deal tougher than INFP's. INFP's have an "aura" of certain kind of sensitivity around them and INTP's don't. INTP's are also more keen on forcing their thoughts on people and INFP's are more "live and let others live" kind of people. But hey, this is only my own subjective Fi experience on this one. :alttongue:
 

Aleksei

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Most Fi and Ti users are like that, but it isn't necessarily the case. INTPs can be cuddly bunnies, and INFPs can be hardasses. The same extends to most types -- My own type is most closely associated to this image:

Sergeant_Hartman.jpg


But I'm one of the nicest people you'll find. :laugh:
 
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