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  1. #31
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    The way I can imagine ENTPs as superficial is their tendency to make jokes and witticisms about everything. Some people, particularly xSFJs, tend to see them as shallow and unemotional. But I hardly see that as a bad thing...

    To sum it all up, N's think S's are shallow, S's think N's are shallow. They're both shallow in different ways.

  2. #32
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    A little late to this party I must admit, but being an enfp who is married to an entp I felt that I could have some limited insight to the topic. BTW Subbie I agree 100% with the idea that an enfp and an entp seem to NEVER be able to get the others point of view. And ironically enough they are so similar yet approached from a different view, one Ti and one Fi. At least that is how I have seen it to be



    I have some thoughts that come from a different angle or point of view here as I look at the idea of being superficial. And one thing I need to say is that it really depends on the individual and their life experiences. I believe that the entp is way more sensitive than they let on to be, I believe that they mask and hide a lot behind that playful spontaneous persona, as do enfps. Yet the difference comes in with the 'F' factor, it is I suppose easier to see an enfp's emotion and therefore chalk their views up to emotions. As the emotions of an enfp are hard to pin down and understand.


    I also think that the idea and the role of coming off as superficial is like a security blanket. The desire in these two types to be well liked and loved and please others is very strong, yet it leads to a lot of hurt as others can and do take advantage of it. So I believe that a way to protect themselves is to never really let anyone in, is to never really share who you are there is the constant Ne being pushed yet the real entp or enfp lies in the Ti/Fi personality trait. If you as an individual can over look the idea of them being superficial or acting superficial and stand the test of time you will begin to see who they really are, and I think you would probably be more shocked at who an entp really is as opposed to who an enfp really is.




    Just some of my thoughts as I walk through a time in my life of personal growth and discovery.
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
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    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  3. #33
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Targs.

    Part of it could be...I'd expect an ENFP to be hurt more easily by any criticism I'd give. Which then just makes things worse....
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  4. #34
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    yes varelse that is true too!

    Have you ever had a heated discussion with an entp? They are set to win, set to make all be persuaded to their point of view, they are strong willed and strong minded.
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
    Jung Test Results
    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  5. #35
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    yes varelse that is true too!

    Have you ever had a heated discussion with an entp? They are set to win, set to make all be persuaded to their point of view, they are strong willed and strong minded.
    Targo, you just described my brother as well! lol I admit that I have been that way too, and have had to work hard on myself to try to restrain that side of me and still only succeed about 40% of the time, but he does it JUST as bad as I ever did, and what's more he has no intention of changing it because he believes he's completely justified.

    I think perhaps what Varelse said about expecting an ENFP to be more hurt by criticism rings somewhat true... I might also (controversially and really asking for it, I know!) add that this could lead to the ENTP being more likely to correct this fault, being made more aware of it by others' reactions and criticisms, whilst ENFP is more likely to carry on, oblivious to it or believing it's okay, because people are less willing to lay into them about it... putting any criticisms that do come in down to people "being mean" or "having it in for them" (see above... ha...) rather than considering any validity in the words.

    In my brother's defence, he does consider the things people say and mull it over later on when he's on his own, and sometimes he does admit he's wrong. But he very rarely apologizes - his version of an apology is to just swan up like nothing happened and expect everyone to forget all about it and never mention it again (if you do, then you're "holding grudges"). He never actually publicly admits to any fault in himself, whilst I know I do and can produce witnesses!

    I don't mean to sound as though I measure all ENFP's by my brother - I know that he's not a particularly healthy example (though I love him dearly! ), though I've seen worse. And I'm not the best example of how ENTP's handle this kinda thing because I've had the last few years of pretty strict external discipline forcing me to restrain and meditate on these faults in myself and so have been working on them perhaps harder and faster than many other ENTP's might - certainly more than I would've of my own volition, without that external force.

    But I've only mentioned the issues with my brother where they chime in with what I've read about ENFP's when they're not at their best (as I have read up a lot, in an effort to sort things out with him!!), and where they also tally with other experience I've had with other ENFP's. Granted I've only known three people in my life that I can confidently type as ENFP, but I doubt members here can say truthfully that they've met that many ENTP's either; we are rare, comparatively.

    Going back to the part in your post that I bolded above, I have to say that yes, I have known ENFP's to have exactly that mindset as well, but they tend to be more covert about it - perhaps in denial about it to themselves, even. It's harder to detect it in ENFP's because whilst the ENTP is fairly obvious and up front about "this is my point and I'm right, just admit it", the ENFP's "point" isn't always an intellectual or verbal one, but a more subtle, personal one, that might not be easily recognized as a point at all, amongst all the empathy and stuff.

    It can often be more a case of wanting desperately the gratification that comes from someone saying "Yes, you're right!" and taking their advice and stuff, I know my brother gets carried away with a train of thought, a series of events he expects to happen: they'll agree with me - they'll do what I suggest - everything will be wonderful - they'll thank me and I'll be able to bask in the glory! But then sometimes it falls down because he gets too wrapped up in that plan and anticipating the wonderful events to come, to be able to focus on what that person really wants and what's realistic and feasible for them where they're at right now.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  6. #36
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Targo, you just described my brother as well! lol I admit that I have been that way too, and have had to work hard on myself to try to restrain that side of me and still only succeed about 40% of the time, but he does it JUST as bad as I ever did, and what's more he has no intention of changing it because he believes he's completely justified.



    ************************************************** ********


    Going back to the part in your post that I bolded above, I have to say that yes, I have known ENFP's to have exactly that mindset as well, but they tend to be more covert about it - perhaps in denial about it to themselves, even. It's harder to detect it in ENFP's because whilst the ENTP is fairly obvious and up front about "this is my point and I'm right, just admit it", the ENFP's "point" isn't always an intellectual or verbal one, but a more subtle, personal one, that might not be easily recognized as a point at all, amongst all the empathy and stuff.



    2 excerpts that I found particularly interesting from you.


    I am so the complete opposite of that I roll over and play dead and concede EVERY time, never am I consistent except to say that i will always stop first and I will always let you (which ever opponent) railroad yourself over me. I will always admit to be wrong, even if I am not and I will always apologize, I will as a matter of fact do anything to return peace even at my expense. It's not healthy I know, but it's what I do to fit in and deal with life. *sigh*


    as for the bolded part *ding ding ding* we have a winner here! that is so me. In my mind and in my heart I have the passion for what I am trying to say and if you could just please see me you would understand what I am trying to argue but I can't put words to the emotions and I can't make you hear or see what i am trying to say. I then feel like a failure and back away from it all and go into hiding. *sigh* I am problematic at the other end of the spectrum I suppose *sigh*
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
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    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  7. #37
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    Just goes to show how much variation there is between people in the same type, huh?

    Maybe it has something to do with expectations socially on males being different to females. In my thread about T women and F men, I wanted to explore that sort of thing, how it might cause the same temperament characteristics to manifest in different ways, so that perhaps my brother reacts more kinda defensively against himself. As a man, he knows he's expected to be certain, sure, confident, bold and assertive, but perhaps as an Fi type he knows that really he's quite sensitive and even insecure. It could be that social conditioning has caused him to feel embarrassed about his own tendencies, whilst maybe a female might be more willing to embrace them or simply own up to them. I don't know, this is pure speculation, but it'd be fascinating to thrash it out and see what others might make of the concept.

    I think this might also be one reason why female ENTP's don't seem perhaps as "superficial" as male ones, because they could feel more comfortable with balancing things with a bit of feeling, whilst men might worry that doing so makes them weak. A female ENTP would possibly be more willing to show the passion behind the "superficial" joking and casual theorizing, whilst at least in British culture that's just not really cricket for a man to do. So you're right - there is an element of hiding something more complex and deep behind the jester facade.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #38
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    It's so funny how I can even have a different idea of superficial than other people. For instance I consider argueing for the sake of 'winning' to be extremely superficial.

  9. #39
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    Hm, but I wouldn't say that it's purely for the sake of winning, when I feel the need to win - it's because I genuinely believe in what I'm arguing and feel totally sure that if the other person just climbs the stairs (from my earlier post, the Lego staircase lol) then they'll SEE when they get to the top, something that I simply can't explain to them in the sorta ISTJ styleee stages kinda presentation style. It's not because I'm being superficial - it's because I'm not superficial and have thought about it a great deal and know what I'm talking about and believe in it so strongly, that it's so important to me that the other person sees it. The winning isn't what's important to me - it's what I hope to be the result of winning: their enlightenment.

    It's not superficiality, but arrogance I guess, that makes me so sure that when they do see it, they'll have no choice but to agree

    (edit - in my defence, they usually do )
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #40
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Targo, you just described my brother as well! lol I admit that I have been that way too, and have had to work hard on myself to try to restrain that side of me and still only succeed about 40% of the time, but he does it JUST as bad as I ever did, and what's more he has no intention of changing it because he believes he's completely justified.

    I think perhaps what Varelse said about expecting an ENFP to be more hurt by criticism rings somewhat true... I might also (controversially and really asking for it, I know!) add that this could lead to the ENTP being more likely to correct this fault, being made more aware of it by others' reactions and criticisms, whilst ENFP is more likely to carry on, oblivious to it or believing it's okay, because people are less willing to lay into them about it... putting any criticisms that do come in down to people "being mean" or "having it in for them" (see above... ha...) rather than considering any validity in the words.

    In my brother's defence, he does consider the things people say and mull it over later on when he's on his own, and sometimes he does admit he's wrong. But he very rarely apologizes - his version of an apology is to just swan up like nothing happened and expect everyone to forget all about it and never mention it again (if you do, then you're "holding grudges"). He never actually publicly admits to any fault in himself, whilst I know I do and can produce witnesses!

    I don't mean to sound as though I measure all ENFP's by my brother - I know that he's not a particularly healthy example (though I love him dearly! ), though I've seen worse. And I'm not the best example of how ENTP's handle this kinda thing because I've had the last few years of pretty strict external discipline forcing me to restrain and meditate on these faults in myself and so have been working on them perhaps harder and faster than many other ENTP's might - certainly more than I would've of my own volition, without that external force.

    But I've only mentioned the issues with my brother where they chime in with what I've read about ENFP's when they're not at their best (as I have read up a lot, in an effort to sort things out with him!!), and where they also tally with other experience I've had with other ENFP's. Granted I've only known three people in my life that I can confidently type as ENFP, but I doubt members here can say truthfully that they've met that many ENTP's either; we are rare, comparatively.

    Going back to the part in your post that I bolded above, I have to say that yes, I have known ENFP's to have exactly that mindset as well, but they tend to be more covert about it - perhaps in denial about it to themselves, even. It's harder to detect it in ENFP's because whilst the ENTP is fairly obvious and up front about "this is my point and I'm right, just admit it", the ENFP's "point" isn't always an intellectual or verbal one, but a more subtle, personal one, that might not be easily recognized as a point at all, amongst all the empathy and stuff.

    It can often be more a case of wanting desperately the gratification that comes from someone saying "Yes, you're right!" and taking their advice and stuff, I know my brother gets carried away with a train of thought, a series of events he expects to happen: they'll agree with me - they'll do what I suggest - everything will be wonderful - they'll thank me and I'll be able to bask in the glory! But then sometimes it falls down because he gets too wrapped up in that plan and anticipating the wonderful events to come, to be able to focus on what that person really wants and what's realistic and feasible for them where they're at right now.
    So what's 'the fault' again. I think it was being 'haphazard' or something, or something. Of course, I don't even consider what the OP mentioned to even be a sin.
    Now, this is NOT an attack, but I should mention that I don't have a good reason to believe that you are right and your brother is wrong. I also have any good reason to 'reasonably doubt' your brother's type. Also, a bandwagon (people 'chiming in') is never a reason to believe you're right, which is another reason that I'm always extremely suspicious of conclusions drawn about type from these threads. You're the realistic, sensible, ENTP, and your brother is just the loony, overemoting ENFP.
    By the way, as much as this thing gets drawn up, I take criticism just like you do. I listen, then decide if it's at all justified or not. Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about this 'F' factor, because I think people percieve it as something wildly different from how feeling actually behaves.

    So I have this friend, and he's this really shallow ENTP.....
    the reason why I don't tell those stories is because it's not about type anymore, it's just about bias.

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