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  1. #1
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Default The Enneagram Mostly Describes Feelers

    Is it just me or do a large amount of Enneagream profiles assume that everyone is an INFP? More directly, every profile seems to assume that each and every personality type is focused around being loved by others. I could never take the typology system seriously after reading this gem about the intellectual Type Fives:

    Fives spend a lot of time observing and contemplating—listening to the sounds of wind or of a synthesizer, or taking notes on the activities in an anthill in their back yard. As they immerse themselves in their observations, they begin to internalize their knowledge and gain a feeling of self-confidence. They can then go out and play a piece on the synthesizer or tell people what they know about ants.
    So, apparently even Type Fives, who would generally fall into the research scientist and engineering fields, are not compelled by any form of intellectual curiosity but by a need to simply impress others with their knowledge. The same can also be said for Type Threes, the goal oriented type, whose primary motivation is also to be liked by other people. This brings into questions where people who just want to succeed in life in order to become “the very best”, to challenge themselves, or simply to become rich and have copious sex with many women while living on a tropical island fall into regard to a motivation for success. It’s almost as if the people came up with the system were really unhealthy Feelers who couldn’t conceive of the idea that not everyone is as super duper sensitive as they are or that people think in a different fashion than they do. Hey, wait a second, that’s exactly what it seems like!

    I did not receive this material from any archangel or entity whatsoever, ... it was the fruit of a long, careful, and dedicated study of the human psyche and the main problems of philosophy and theology....after working years with the enneagrams, I could visualize them in the same form that is observed in tantric visualizations that become more vivid and clear than anything that we can perceive with our ordinary senses.
    Got it. So the reason that the Enneagream can’t be said to have been conceived in a vision is because Mr. Ichazo thought about it for a long time. Just like every conceivable religious doctrine or series of New Agey beliefs. I’m pretty sure the UFO abductees have done some reflection of their own but that still doesn’t change the fact that the entire system was conceived over dubious means and a cup of bs.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  2. #2
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    For some reason, I've disliked the enneagram.. it has given too flaky results for me. Ok. That's enough of a reason. Even MBTI has given more similar results over time, not to mention DISC, HBDI..

    Yeah, enneagram does seem to have a twist to it, that in the end, we're all silly. Doesn't MBTI do that too?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #3
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    yeah, i feel like the enneagram is kind of... well, random, honestly. i know it has its roots in mystic tradition, which i think is really cool, but it seems like most type profiles are ridiculous in the amount they try to pin people down. 6.7 million people grouped into 9 rather narrowly defined categories? doubt it. i think they build off the core drives too much. try to flesh too much out. though i get the value of seeing things through these lenses.

    also had a thought...

    enneagram/MBTI correlations:

    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-1 = ISTJ, ISFJ; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = ISTJ, ENFJ, ENTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, INTJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ENTP
    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-2 = ESFJ, ENFJ; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = ESFJ, ENFJ, ESFP, ENFP, ISFP, ISTP, ISFJ
    2 MBTI w/ highest conc. in Zone-3 = ESTP, ENTP; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = ESTP, ENTP, ENTJ, ESTJ, ESFJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, ENTJ
    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-4 = INFJ, INFP; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = INFJ, INFP, ENFJ, ISFP, ENFP, ESFP
    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-5 = INTP, ISTP; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ, INFJ
    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-6 = ISFJ, ESFJ; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = ISFJ, ESFJ, INFP, ENFP, ISTJ, INTP
    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-7 = ENFP, ESFP; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = ESTP, ESFP, ENTP, ENFP, ISTP, ENFJ
    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-8 = ENTJ, ESTJ; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = ENTJ, ESTJ, ENTP, ESTP, ESFP, ENFP, ISTJ
    2 MBTIs w/ highest conc. in Zone-9 = ISFP, INFP; other MBTIs >1.0 - in order = ISFP, INFP, ISFJ, ESTP, ISTP

    it would appear that Thinkers are more evenly spread out while Feelers tend to cluster in certain types - 2, 4, 6, 7, 9. so perhaps the enneagram does not resonate as strongly for Thinkers...

    or, for whatever reason, you guys have more variety than us. one thought is that Feelers tend to have core issues that center on people or emotions, while Thinkers are probably more likely to be free of that attachment and thus not so likely confined to a few types. that would seem to be true for most Feeler-dominant types except 7, which i don't really know what to say about, besides it looks like the Ts who would likely be 7s probably end up as 3s. perhaps logic allows yall to control and direct impulse better, and thus avoid flighty 7. but 3, 5, and 8 are quite solidly T.
    Last edited by skylights; 09-23-2010 at 12:06 AM. Reason: shitty comment in general. made better. apologies.

  4. #4
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Enneagram describes deeply rooted, subconscious emotional motivations, which is only one aspect of personality, just as cognitive functions (MBTI/Jungian theory) are only one aspect.

    If you don't see yourself in any of the profiles, there is a chance that it is because you are not aware of your own emotional motivations. They may sound "feeler-ish" to you because Feelers may stereotypically be more "in-touch" with their emotions and more aware of their motivations. However, that is definitely not always true.

    Another possibility is you've only read poorly written profiles and descriptions of how the system works, which seems likely.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #5
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Enneagram describes deeply rooted, subconscious emotional motivations, which is only one aspect of personality, just as cognitive functions (MBTI/Jungian theory) are only one aspect.

    If you don't see yourself in any of the profiles, there is a chance that it is because you are not aware of your own emotional motivations. They may sound "feeler-ish" to you because Feelers may stereotypically be more "in-touch" with their emotions and more aware of their motivations. However, that is definitely not always true.

    Another possibility is you've only read poorly written profiles and descriptions of how the system works, which seems likely.
    Agreed.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #6
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Bullshit
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    You
    ....

  7. #7
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Enneagram describes deeply rooted, subconscious emotional motivations, which is only one aspect of personality, just as cognitive functions (MBTI/Jungian theory) are only one aspect.
    Actually, part of what makes me so incredulous about the Enneagram is that no one can seem to decide on what the various personalities represent. Depending on who you ask the Enneagram describes a person's carnal sins, instinctual drives, or even the method through which a person can obtain spiritual enlightenment. That last one is especially absurd.

    If you don't see yourself in any of the profiles, there is a chance that it is because you are not aware of your own emotional motivations. They may sound "feeler-ish" to you because Feelers may stereotypically be more "in-touch" with their emotions and more aware of their motivations. However, that is definitely not always true.
    This, however, is the main criticism that scientists aim at typology as a whole. The idea that if you don't like the result that you receive, you can just retake the test in order to receive a result that fits you self image is begging for confirmation bias. Other typology systems are bad enough in that a person may receive a sufficiently vague result and then inaccurately connect the result to their personality, which is how astrology is said to work, but in this case you've seemingly asked me to analyze myself more and then connect it to an Enneagram result. In addition, it doesn't seem logical for me to trust a typology system with even less scientific validation than the MBTI, over my own past introspection.

    Another possibility is you've only read poorly written profiles and descriptions of how the system works, which seems likely.
    Possible though not likely. The quote that I used was from the first Google search result for "enneagram", Enneagram Institute, a site that was also reviewed by Time's Magazine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
    Bullshit
    Could you please explain?
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  8. #8
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Well scientific validation is pretty damn useless when it comes to personality typing. Every article I read about the validity of Myers-Briggs seems to say: The only thing reliably measured is the E/I preference, the rest is bullshit. It's because you can't make it into something mechanical, there has to be a certain degree of introspection on the part of the person trying to determine their type. We understand the physical, scientific world so well these days, accomplish so many amazing scientific things, but know so little about ourselves. Not everything can be learned through logic and empirical data.

    And there aren't just 9 types in the Enneagram. There are 9 basic types x 2 possible wings x 6 different variant stackings x 18 different tritypes= 1944 different results, not to mention taking into consideration the strength of the wings/instincts and the flavorings you can get into when you incorporate Myers-Briggs crossover. It starts at the foundation (parental orientation, core fixations, etc) and works outwards.

    If you need more science, they do talk about the brain chemistry they have observed in each type/triad here: http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/200...enneagram.html

    There is a place for logic and data in this world, I know that. In fact it is indispensable. But I don't think these systems really are about science. All of these things are way too subjective and depend on the person's ability to understand their motivations. And I don't think it's about validation either. I really was embarrassed when I first discovered I was a 6. The descriptions, even the positive ones, are really lame and unglamorous. Reading about the negative qualities made me squirm, because I had to look at the part of myself I am most ashamed of naked, warts and all. I tried to convince myself I was any other type, but it just resonated way too much for me to escape it. And the more I researched about 6's the more I came to understand about myself and what I needed to do to grow as a person.

    Lastly, they didn't say 5's whole purpose is just to impress people. with their knowledge. It just says they can go out in the world and actually feel able to share their information. I have an INTP 5w6 friend, who is extremely detached, lives like a hermit, never speaks to anyone (even when spoken to at his school), doesn't care what people think, and even he calls me up sometimes to share what he's learned about different things. He has talked about his discoveries on the phone to me for over 6 hours sometimes. It's not that he's desperate for my validation, he just wants to share and bounce ideas off another person. He's not doing it for me. He knows I don't really share most of his interests or lavish praise upon him for being so clever. The Enneagram has REALLY helped me understand and appreciate him as well as other 5's in my life.

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