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  1. #71
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Oh I kind of remember where I was going earlier when I was asking about the definition of manipulation.

    I pretty much expected people to think manipulation=bad just as word connotation or whatever, so I expected each person to define it as whatever was just past the level of manipulation that they personally see as acceptable. Obviously I was wrong because some people are defining it loosely and saying some forms are ok.

  2. #72
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Okay, I believe you.

    So you understand, I have a real thing about people being picked on. This is my burden to bear.
    Yeah. I understand.

    ENTJ and all.

    Right on!
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    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  3. #73
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    You [nice people] are doing it again, making up definitions to misunderstand something easy. Manipulation is the covert reduction or removal of another person's ability to choose to walk away. Consciously manipulating is worse than unconsciously manipulating, but to say that there are times when manipulation is okay, you'll need to say not only that there are times when it's better for people not to make their own choices but that at those times it is appropriate and important to hide your role in how little choice they have now.

    The exceptionally fine distinction to be drawn between manipulation and influence (for adults) turns on whether or not the other person continues to be able to exercise their right to say no.

    Or so I presume.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  4. #74
    Senior Member Goosebump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You [nice people] are doing it again, making up definitions to misunderstand something easy. Manipulation is the covert reduction or removal of another person's ability to choose to walk away. Consciously manipulating is worse than unconsciously manipulating, but to say that there are times when manipulation is okay, you'll need to say not only that there are times when it's better for people not to make their own choices but that at those times it is appropriate and important to hide your role in how little choice they have now.

    The exceptionally fine distinction to be drawn between manipulation and influence (for adults) turns on whether or not the other person continues to be able to exercise their right to say no.

    Or so I presume.
    I talked to a friend about this and she cleared up something for me. I agree it's the definition that causes people to have different understanding of the concept. I've been surrounded by materials that usually emphasize the importance of not manipulating people, but guiding them there to what you want.
    Then I realize that diplomacy is a form of manipulation, as you have to choose your words and action carefully so that the other won't directly turn you down. In that way, I guess whether manipulation is acceptable varies on the person and the method.
    I appreciate that you point out the distinction on whether the person still have a choice to choose what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    eh, i can't define harm, to some extent. but i really think most humans have a general sense of knowing when they are being deliberately cruel to another person. and if they don't know, then it really isn't deliberate, so the point becomes moot anyway.
    This makes more sense to me. I was not sure if I agree. As how do you know what would be cruel to the person, even if you know them really well. But then I thought about how direct forwardness sometimes also hurts the person. So I guess the situation and your knowledge of the person call for the which method to use. Whether to be forward and tell it like it is or to manipulate.
    lol the word still has a negative connotation to me but for the time, I guess it's not that bad because it is necessary sometimes.

    Thanks skylights and Kalach.
    In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher.

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  5. #75
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    It is always a bad thing
    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    Manipulation is mostly needed when one's actual position is too weak to be convincing, then it must be artificially constructed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    How can you define harm though? And who am I to know what is best to the other person?

    I sure hope my brother, for example, isn't manipulating me left and right to do make me do what HE thinks it is right for me. Nevermind dishonesty, why should I trust his judgement over mine??
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You [nice people] are doing it again, making up definitions to misunderstand something easy. Manipulation is the covert reduction or removal of another person's ability to choose to walk away. Consciously manipulating is worse than unconsciously manipulating, but to say that there are times when manipulation is okay, you'll need to say not only that there are times when it's better for people not to make their own choices but that at those times it is appropriate and important to hide your role in how little choice they have now.

    The exceptionally fine distinction to be drawn between manipulation and influence (for adults) turns on whether or not the other person continues to be able to exercise their right to say no.


    Everyone else is rationalizing deception. Call a spade a spade. You don't deserve to psychologically abuse people and feel good about yourselves at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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