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  1. #51
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    There's a reason why you don't like or appreciate it, and we all don't have to have ulterior motives. Those motives can be made public in honest communication

    And asking your mother if she wants to go to the store is not manipulation. It's a request. You are making everything plain and it's her decision.
    on the contrary, the reason i don't like or appreciate it is not because i am unaware; it's simply because i dislike the content of the desire. many other people have much different goals than i do, and sometimes they directly clash. even my dislike of people trying to do what's "best" for me is really not all that horrible. in their paradigm it's not very much different from any other desire, it just happens to clash with mine and thus it feels dangerous and threatening to me. it is my own fear of being blown from my path.

    but it's impractical to assume that all of our desires can or should be openly communicated. many of them are subconscious to begin with, and shouldn't everyone have a right to privacy? i don't really want to tell everyone all of my desires, nor do i really want to hear everyone else's.

    and to return to the path metaphor - ultimately, i believe, it is each individual's responsibility to stay on their own path, regardless of what influences them externally. it is our individual duty to not take action that intentionally causes harm to others, but there is no moral obligation not to influence others otherwise.

    so if we're going for a definition of manipulation as covert behavior with the express purpose of harming another, then yes, i am against it.

    if it's just covert behavior for purposes that do not include harming someone else, i have no problem with it.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if it's just covert behavior for purposes that do not include harming someone else, i have no problem with it.
    How can you define harm though? And who am I to know what is best to the other person?

    I sure hope my brother, for example, isn't manipulating me left and right to do make me do what HE thinks it is right for me. Nevermind dishonesty, why should I trust his judgement over mine??

    Using empathy and the same line of reasoning I don't like the idea of being covert towards others either.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post

    My question is really just trying to figure out what constitutes manipulation. Is it manipulation to put emphasis on certain things in line with what someone wants and downplaying what is against what they want in order to get them to agree to your idea? If so, where is the line? Are all forms of persuasive speech considered manipulation? I can see the case that they are. In fact, you could probably even make the case that all communication is an attempt at manipulation, but I'm sure that isn't what this thread is about.
    "Downplaying" sounds like a code word for hiding the truth, to me.
    I say be straight up with people and tell it like it is. It's probably why I'm having trouble with this thread.
    Even the title annoys me. It sounds like underhanded rubbish.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    What way exactly? What black and white are you talking about?

    And yes I'm sure I'm an ENFP. Maybe you're messed up, have you thought about that?
    You're all like:
    I cannot believe three fellow ENFPs just said that manipulation is not always bad.



    But I'm glad an INFJ is here to remind us that it is and to point out the right way to go.
    That's weird.

    And then you seem to think that flirting is similarly always bad or usually bad and there's no possibly why it can't be bad. And that someone saying it's morally wrong would be "right". Just choosing to define things like this and that by right or wrong is weird.

    It's hard to be the oddball in a group of oddballs but you've done it. Is that intentional?
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  5. #55
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    Of course Fs seem easier to manipulate, because they tend to care more about people and are more sensitive on average, where a T can easily say no, if something's not logical. ISTJs though often seem so based on doing the right thing, that you could manipulate the hell out of them to do what needs to be done, for your own sake.

  6. #56
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    How can you define harm though? And who am I to know what is best to the other person?

    I sure hope my brother, for example, isn't manipulating me left and right to do make me do what HE thinks it is right for me. Nevermind dishonesty, why should I trust his judgement over mine??

    Using empathy and the same line of reasoning I don't like the idea of being covert towards others either.
    eh, i can't define harm, to some extent. but i really think most humans have a general sense of knowing when they are being deliberately cruel to another person. and if they don't know, then it really isn't deliberate, so the point becomes moot anyway.

    i think that to some extent we will all manipulate others to try to make them do what's best for them, especially us NFs! i don't tell my little brother that i'm pestering him to study not because i really give a shit what kind of grades he makes (well, i do, but i feel like that should be entirely his responsibility) - but because i think he ought to have a general understanding of certain subjects i find particularly relevant. maybe a mathematician would emphasize him learning math more, but i don't really push that because i'm not super into math and don't see it's importance as well. i push world history much more. and in some ways me pestering him to study that in particular is manipulation, and is manipulation to make him do what i think is best for him. but the whole paradigm of school enforces that he should study everything anyway, so that's an external influence on him too...

    pretty much, i agree with kant that ethics based on ends don't work because there's really no way of qualifying the ends. me pushing my brother to study history gets him a better grade in that class and better knowledge of world history but it takes away time from him playing piano, which he'd rather be doing. is this a good end? yes, if you're looking at it from an academic standpoint. no, if you're looking at it from just having fun in life. no, from a musical standpoint. yes, if he's applying for college. no, if he dies the day after he takes his finals (god forbid). there are really infinite effects of one act, thus it's far too complex to judge. but we can judge an intention; it is a singular idea at a single point in space-time.

    as for being covert, i really think everyone should have the right to privacy. yes i think it's helpful if people open up and generally useful to society and generally easier on everyone. yet, among other downsides - notably a serious loss of general harmony - it makes one very vulnerable to others. i don't want to open up very much to someone i don't trust, or even just really don't like. if their intentions are not as pure as mine, they could really end up hurting me. and harmony - does my best friend really always need to know when i'm pissed off at her? maybe Fi says fuck yeah, but Fe says hey you're really just being selfish and you're going to get over it in a few minutes anyway, so you should really just keep your mouth shut. and Fi aux though i may be, Fe is totally right in this case. so, being open as a generally good idea? yes. being open as an ethical duty? i don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar
    "Downplaying" sounds like a code word for hiding the truth, to me.
    I say be straight up with people and tell it like it is. It's probably why I'm having trouble with this thread.
    Even the title annoys me. It sounds like underhanded rubbish.
    lol. absolutely, to some extent. we're definitely treading on a fuzzy ethical place.

    but this is actually a great lead-in for underscoring my point about ends and means - most of our thoughts are generally opinions, anyway. "tell it like it is" means "let me tell you how i see it". to tell someone the truth... well, honestly, you don't really know that it's Truth, most of the time. people thought the world being flat was truth for quite a while. so if back then someone told someone else the "truth" about the world's flatness... they were technically hiding the truth (assuming of course the world is in fact relatively spherical and we haven't fucked it up again), so if we judge by ends... well then that's deceptive ends. even though the means were good.

    hence judging by intention alone, imo.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post

    It's hard to be the oddball in a group of oddballs but you've done it.
    omg. omg. omg.

    totally true (not linked to sytpg), but sometimes i think, ahhhhhhhhhhh, i am sooooooo fucking weird that i am weird among weirdos.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petra Pan View Post
    omg. omg. omg.

    totally true (not linked to sytpg), but sometimes i think, ahhhhhhhhhhh, i am sooooooo fucking weird that i am weird among weirdos.
    Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm that way too but I just don't understand such rigid thinking and readiness to dictate what's "right" and what's "wrong" on a moral basis from an enfp.

    To not be open to the idea that maybe it's not all bad intentions all the time, that's the opposite of flexibility. . ..
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  9. #59
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I think you're a weird ENFP because you're so black and white about things and see them the way you'd apply your own morals, except you do it to others. That's odd for an ENFP. I haven't seen one other ENFP like that around here. Are you sure you're ENFP and not a messed up xNxJ or something?

    An enfp that believes in "wrong vs right" in the way you just espoused. Is probably not an enfp.

    He is, it's just the way his Fi works. When I was younger, I was also more black and white like this. It's about feeling very very strongly about a certain issue and not wanting it to be tainted by compromising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    The beneficial end doesn't justify the malicious means though.

    I don't consider it a malicious means.

    You're a bit idealistic on this, I'd say. Like it or not, the way you formulate things and the way you understand another person and therefore are able to accomodate their needs, read their fears and accomodate for those, makes them more receptive to what you have to say.

    You can deliver the same message in a reactionary 'That's how it is!' kind of way, or you can deliver that message in the way I just described and in essence, you would have manipulated that person.

    In reality, you're making it easier for them to hear you by being thoughtful. That thoughtfulness though, at the core, is manipulating, even if you do it becoz you genuinly care for them. It's the good kind though. It's the kind that shows them that you care, that you acknowledge that there's more in the world than your own pov and that you're not unreasonable as a person or short-sighted and willing to see what their needs, fears and urges are. It creates goodwill. And society is built on it.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I think you're a weird ENFP because you're so black and white about things and see them the way you'd apply your own morals, except you do it to others. That's odd for an ENFP. I haven't seen one other ENFP like that around here. Are you sure you're ENFP and not a messed up xNxJ or something?

    An enfp that believes in "wrong vs right" in the way you just espoused. Is probably not an enfp.
    I think he's INFP, personally.

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