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  1. #41
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Disagree

    It's a fun game, especially if they know you're doing it and are willing to meet your challenge

    Also, manipulation also entails comforting others when they're hurt, by saying the right things, knowing exactly how to hold them and hug them and taking care of their needs at that point, in order to take away at least some of their emotional pain, which in my books is a *very* good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    True manipulation isn't always bad and without it society and science would not have advanced this far (if you want to get literal). The idea that manipulation is always bad is ironic and probably comes from some dislike of emotions.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think there are many different ways to go about manipulation.

    i also don't think manipulation is inherently bad at all. all people are subject to external influence. as long as we don't do it to intentionally harm someone else, i find it a fairly neutral thing to play at. and we can manipulate people in a way that helps them, too.



    true. and of course it's always best to play to the way a person works. there are just different things you can aim for. you can work with the content of someone's fears - or you can work with what causes the fear and how it manifests. you can go for desire, or, like satine did, go for how someone goes about achieving that desire. in that case, i think it's easiest to reframe things to suit a person's dom/aux. turn a boring office task into a creative task, and i'm all for it.

    i think how to best way to go about manipulation also depends a lot and who you are, not only on who the other person is. i can't manipulate in the same way my mom does, or my best friend does (incidentally both Fe doms), but i have my own ways of going about things that are effective too.

    i've discovered me and a Fe-dom make an amazing tag team. we can get - and get away with - almost anything.

    I cannot believe three fellow ENFPs just said that manipulation is not always bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    Manipulation is mostly needed when one's actual position is too weak to be convincing, then it must be artificially constructed.

    If your original position is strong enough in terms of positive intentions and displaying self as you actually are, then manipulation serves no purpose except to confuse the issue.
    But I'm glad an INFJ is here to remind us that it is and to point out the right way to go.

  2. #42
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    That's coz I don't see things in that black and white setting of Wrong or Right. It's a tool that can be used beneficially or maliciously.

    I'll agree though that Annwn makes some very good points as to why manipulation is used at times.
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  3. #43
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I cannot believe three fellow ENFPs just said that manipulation is not always bad.



    But I'm glad an INFJ is here to remind us that it is and to point out the right way to go.
    but it's not, sytpg, and it's unfortunate to try to play a guilt game given our types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine
    That's coz I don't see things in that black and white setting of Wrong or Right. It's a tool that can be used beneficially or maliciously.
    Fi is value- and inner "truthiness"-oriented, yes, but at dom/aux levels it's way more complex than Wrong and Right.

    look at it this way: we manipulate all the time, whether we mean to or not. every action i take, every word i speak, everything i choose has some kind of impact on someone else. when i ask my mother if we can go to the store together, that is a form of manipulation. it's changing herself and her plans to suit me. i also change my action and behavior to suit the circumstances all the time. when i travel to france, i speak french, so that people will get along with me better and so that i can more effectively communicate. and yet all of these things are quite positive or neutral in intention. even when i Ne wiggle my way out of a tight corner, i always try to do so without harming someone else.

    that said, there are two main kinds of manipulation i do have a problem with:

    1. manipulation to deliberately harm someone else. that just sucks.
    2. when someone decides what is good for me and proceeds to direct me in ways of their own devising "for my own good". if they're trying to "help" me or direct me in some way and haven't checked in with me as to whether i want that help or not, that feels incredibly subversive to me. well-intentioned, but scary.


    if they're just trying to get something out of me (and assume it will not harm me), fair enough, i figure. i mean, i don't really like or appreciate it, but we all have ulterior motives. as long as our intentions are not malicious i don't have a huge ethical problem with it.

  4. #44
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    As a thought, there are two people involved. The person attempting to manipulate (P1) and the other person (P2). Since when is P2 so blind they can't see what's happening?

  5. #45
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't really get what the line is and what we are calling manipulation.

    If I have a good feel for someones desires and fears and I frame something in a way to make them go along with me easier, am I manipulating them? It is ultimately their decision no matter what I say.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Go ahead and tell a Ti person they're being "illogical" and see what kind of response you get.

    Some people don't mind being incompetent as much as being considered mean or unkind. It depends on the person.
    and make some stupid logic up from your behind and watch them explode from your INCREDIBLE stupidity. Messing with people's heads can be great..

    I think people could definitely manipulate more through Ni than Fe (but still a lot through Fe).

  7. #47
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post

    If I have a good feel for someones desires and fears and I frame something in a way to make them go along with me easier, am I manipulating them? It is ultimately their decision no matter what I say.
    You use people's fears against them to get what you want?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I cannot believe three fellow ENFPs just said that manipulation is not always bad.



    But I'm glad an INFJ is here to remind us that it is and to point out the right way to go.
    I think you're a weird ENFP because you're so black and white about things and see them the way you'd apply your own morals, except you do it to others. That's odd for an ENFP. I haven't seen one other ENFP like that around here. Are you sure you're ENFP and not a messed up xNxJ or something?

    An enfp that believes in "wrong vs right" in the way you just espoused. Is probably not an enfp.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  9. #49
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You use people's fears against them to get what you want?
    No, at least I can't think of an example, I am speaking in the hypothetical sense. I mentioned fears because it was getting thrown around in the thread.

    My question is really just trying to figure out what constitutes manipulation. Is it manipulation to put emphasis on certain things in line with what someone wants and downplaying what is against what they want in order to get them to agree to your idea? If so, where is the line? Are all forms of persuasive speech considered manipulation? I can see the case that they are. In fact, you could probably even make the case that all communication is an attempt at manipulation, but I'm sure that isn't what this thread is about.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    That's coz I don't see things in that black and white setting of Wrong or Right. It's a tool that can be used beneficially or maliciously.
    The beneficial end doesn't justify the malicious means though.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i mean, i don't really like or appreciate it, but we all have ulterior motives. as long as our intentions are not malicious i don't have a huge ethical problem with it.
    There's a reason why you don't like or appreciate it, and we all don't have to have ulterior motives. Those motives can be made public in honest communication

    And asking your mother if she wants to go to the store is not manipulation. It's a request. You are making everything plain and it's her decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I think you're a weird ENFP because you're so black and white about things and see them the way you'd apply your own morals, except you do it to others. That's odd for an ENFP. I haven't seen one other ENFP like that around here. Are you sure you're ENFP and not a messed up xNxJ or something?

    An enfp that believes in "wrong vs right" in the way you just espoused. Is probably not an enfp.
    What way exactly? What black and white are you talking about?

    And yes I'm sure I'm an ENFP. Maybe you're messed up, have you thought about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    Are all forms of persuasive speech considered manipulation? I can see the case that they are. In fact, you could probably even make the case that all communication is an attempt at manipulation, but I'm sure that isn't what this thread is about.
    Exactly. Only if one's idea of manipulation is very broad, is manipulation good. If stuff like "mom will you come to the store we me?" is manipulation. Then yes, I manipulate too and willingly.

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