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  1. #11
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    In MBTI theory your type's letters build your function order. INTP- introvert (lead with an introverted function), perceiver (have Pe and Ji), N and T (have intuition and thinking as preferred processes). So since perceivers have Ji and Pe, and N and T are their preferred judging and perceiving functions, they are TiNe. And everyone uses TFSN functions, so then you have Si and Fe (the other end of the spectrum of Ti and Ne).

    I've always figured that everyone just used their main 4 primarily. I think that the other 4 are used unconsciously, and that anything that looks like (for example) "Fi" for an INTP is just Ti being fed by their Fe. Function combinations can make it look like you're "using" another one.

    You probably have a strong Si, and that combined with Ne may look like an Ni thought process, for example.

    I know that someone's gonna come in here and say "everyone uses all 8, duh" with absolutely no reasoning; but that's just my opinion. Something to think about.
    Oh, okay, that's interesting. Because I have often wondered, with things like INTP and INFJ, how Fi is supposed to be the function that gives you steady and strong ideals and such (I think) yet both these types that have Fe are often rather idealistic (eg Daria (from Daria), Ghandi). But I guess Ti supported by Fe sort of thing might explain that.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The functions are NOT attitudes. A preference for a function is the attitude. The functions themselves are just that, functions. Like computer programs. In other words, they're input/output relationships.
    "Preference" has a meaning peculiar to MBTI when MBTI uses it, I think. It's as if to say I have a preference for being right handed. There's no conscious choice there. It is what it is.

    Which is not to say you can't learn to use methods that other types use, just like you can learn to use your other hand. But it's not the same as being born left-handed.

    The point seems to be to increase your versatility and the number of tools in your toolbox as well as to appreciate how other people are wired, but it's still wiring.

  3. #13
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    Oh, okay, that's interesting. Because I have often wondered, with things like INTP and INFJ, how Fi is supposed to be the function that gives you steady and strong ideals and such (I think) yet both these types that have Fe are often rather idealistic (eg Daria (from Daria), Ghandi). But I guess Ti supported by Fe sort of thing might explain that.
    NFs are usually idealistic in general - N being inclined to search for overarching patterns and F inclined to seek humanism, thus the search for humanistic patterns - and NTs too seek patterns, typically patterns of how things work, which can also come off as idealistic.

    anyone with any function order can be idealistic, really, or have strong convictions, but Fi is more about how you make judgments. people with Fi as their judging preference prefer to use evaluation (literally, e-value-ation) of subjective circumstances to decide things. it differs from Fe in that it is more concerned with inner consistency than external relationships, and differs from Ti in that it is more concerned with weighing value than logical analysis.

    eg the difference between my INTP brother and i in our reasons for liking a certain song on the radio: me - "the lyrics are inspiring and the music puts me in a good mood" vs. him - "the musical progression of chords and licks is really interesting". of course these both overlap to a huge extent, but that's a very stereotypical NFP/NTP difference.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    Oh, okay. I think I understand. I'm fairly new to them so forgive me. But I did mean preffered rather than ONLY using those functions. My 4 main functions can still be all one way?

    So if my functions were

    Ti
    Ni
    Fi
    Si
    Fe
    Te
    Ne
    Se

    I would be an INTP still?
    this is your function strength order, not your function order.

    someone posted this(copied elsewhere if i remember right) about function roles. those are based on function order, not the strength. for intp function order would be ti ne si fe te ni se fi

    The Roles of the Processes
    In each of the sixteen types, each of the eight processes plays a different “role” in the personality. The type code lets you know what role each process plays for each type. This is called “type dynamics.” It is also referred to as the “hierarchy of functions”: Dominant, Auxiliary, Tertiary, and Inferior. The roles are explained below to help you better understand the patterns. In most of what we do we rely on two of the processes—a preferred way of accessing information and a preferred way of organizing and evaluating that information. As we look more closely we can see that one process takes a leading role and the other takes a supporting role.

    In truth, we have access to all eight cognitive processes—the other six are often in the background, playing other kinds of roles. Each has a positive and a negative way of expressing itself. Each bears a different energy cost when we use it.


    The Primary Processes
    The primary processes are those used in the first four roles. Each process tends to emerge and develop at different times in our lives. During these times we are drawn to activities that use these processes. Then, learning the content and the skills that engage these processes is often nearly effortless. We find our interest is drawn to them and our interest is pulled away from things we were drawn to before.


    The Leading Role (Dominant) (sometimes referred to as the 1st function)
    The process that plays the leading role is the one that usually develops early in childhood. We tend to engage in this process first, trusting it to solve our problems and help us be successful. Being the most trusted and most used, it usually has an adult, mature quality to it. While we are likely to engage in it rather automatically and effortlessly, we have much more conscious control over it. The energy cost for using it is very low. Much like in the movies, the leading role has a heroic quality as using it can get us out of difficult situations. However, we can sometimes “turn up the volume” on this process and become overbearing and domineering. Then it takes on a negative dominating quality.

    The Supporting Role (Auxiliary) (sometimes referred to as the 2nd function)
    The supporting role is how we are helpful to others as well as supportive of ourselves. Once we have developed some facility with our leading role process, we are more likely to feel comfortable engaging in our supporting role process. In its most positive form, this can be quite like a nurturing parent. In its more negative aspect, it can be overprotective and stunting rather than helpful. When the leading role process is an extraverted one, the supporting role process is introverted. When the leading role process is an introverted one, the supporting role process is extraverted and may be quite active and visible as it provides a way of dealing with the outer world.

    The Relief Role (Tertiary) (sometimes referred to as the 3rd function)
    The relief role gives us a way to energize and recharge ourselves. It serves as a backup to the supporting role and often works in tandem with it. When we are younger, we might not engage in the process that plays this role very much unless our life circumstances require it or make it hard to use the supporting role process. Usually, in young adulthood we are attracted to activities that draw upon this process. The relief role often is how we express our creativity. It is how we are playful and childlike. In its most negative expression, this is how we become childish. Then it has an unsettling quality, and we can use this process to distract ourselves and others, getting us off target.

    The Aspirational Role (Inferior) (sometimes referred to as the 4th function)
    The aspirational role usually doesn’t develop until around midlife. We often experience it first in its negative aspect of projecting our “shoulds,” fears, and negativities onto others. The qualities of these fears reflect the process that plays this role, and we are more likely to look immature when we engage in the process that plays this role. There is often a fairly high energy cost for using it—even when we acquire the skill to do so. As we learn to trust it and develop it, the aspirational role process provides a bridge to balance in our lives. Often our sense of purpose, inspiration, and ideals have the qualities of the process that plays this role.

    The Shadow Processes
    The other four cognitive processes operate more on the boundaries of our awareness. It is as if they are in the shadows and only come forward under certain circumstances. We usually experience these processes in a negative way, yet when we are open to them, they can be quite positive.


    The Opposing Role (sometimes referred to as the 5th function)
    The opposing role is often how we get stubborn and argumentative—refusing to “play” and join in whatever is going on at the time. It might be easy for us to develop skill in the process that plays this role, but we are likely to be more narrow in our application of this skill, and it will likely take more energy to use it extensively. In its positive aspect, it provides a shadow or depth to our leading role process, backing it up and enabling us to be more persistent in pursuit of our goals.

    The Critical Parent Role (sometimes referred to as the 6th function)
    The critical parent role is how we find weak spots and can immobilize and demoralize others. We can also feel this way when others use the process that plays this role. It is often used sporadically and emerges more often under stressful conditions when something important is at risk. When we engage it, we can go on and on. To access its positive side of discovery, we must learn to appreciate and be open to it. Then it has an almost magical quality and can provide a profound sense of wisdom.

    The Deceiving Role (sometimes referred to as the 7th function)
    The deceiving role fools us into thinking something is important to do or pay attention to. The process that fills this role is often not trusted or seen as worthy of attention, for when we do engage it, we may make mistakes in perception or in decision making. Then we feel double bound—trapped between two bad options. Yet this role can have a positive side as it provides comic relief. Then we can laugh at ourselves. It can be refreshing and join with the relief role as we recharge ourselves through play.

    The Devilish Role (sometimes referred to as the 8th function)
    The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  5. #15
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    In MBTI theory your type's letters build your function order. INTP- introvert (lead with an introverted function), perceiver (have Pe and Ji), N and T (have intuition and thinking as preferred processes). So since perceivers have Ji and Pe, and N and T are their preferred judging and perceiving functions, they are TiNe. And everyone uses TFSN functions, so then you have Si and Fe (the other end of the spectrum of Ti and Ne).

    I've always figured that everyone just used their main 4 primarily. I think that the other 4 are used unconsciously, and that anything that looks like (for example) "Fi" for an INTP is just Ti being fed by their Fe. Function combinations can make it look like you're "using" another one.

    You probably have a strong Si, and that combined with Ne and the thorough analysis of Ti may look like an Ni thought process, for example.

    I know that someone's gonna come in here and say "everyone uses all 8, duh" with absolutely no reasoning; but that's just my opinion. Something to think about.
    Jung made the distinction that perceiving is unconscious and judging is conscious. This means Ne/Ni/Se/Si are used unconsciously and Te/Ti/Fe/Fi are used consciously. For everyone.

    I don't really get why everyone talks about functions 5-8 being unconscious. Maybe some theorist said that, I guess. But it contradicts how the functions are defined.

  6. #16
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    someone posted this(copied elsewhere if i remember right) about function roles.
    that was me

    it comes from this site - The 16 Type Patterns

    i really like it for an introduction to the complexities of function and function order. it has nice descriptions of each function, and of each type, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan
    Jung made the distinction that perceiving is unconscious and judging is conscious. This means Ne/Ni/Se/Si are used unconsciously and Te/Ti/Fe/Fi are used consciously. For everyone.

    I don't really get why everyone talks about functions 5-8 being unconscious. Maybe some theorist said that, I guess. But it contradicts how the functions are defined.
    i think that makes a lot more sense than the "shadow" functions being unconscious. because my dom function though it may be, i really don't think about Ne all that much. it's just how i see things. Fi requires a lot more conscious thought and pondering, and Te definitely involves conscious action.

    i mean, i feel like i consciously use Ti too, i just consciously suck at it.

    seriously though - so what's the big split between the first and second four, then? that they only take the lead in certain situations, as opposed to the first four, which interchange fairly frequently? i guess there's a much higher energy cost in using your shadow functions instead because it takes a lot to make things run backwards of your norm...

  7. #17
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Jung made the distinction that perceiving is unconscious and judging is conscious. This means Ne/Ni/Se/Si are used unconsciously and Te/Ti/Fe/Fi are used consciously. For everyone.

    I don't really get why everyone talks about functions 5-8 being unconscious. Maybe some theorist said that, I guess. But it contradicts how the functions are defined.
    Yes, the way that Jung conceived it, there were only four functions, S, N, T, F (no "-e" or "-i" following them yet), and the first two were more conscious than the second two. Now, when you add on a dominant i/e orientation, it will pair with the dominant function. The auxiliary and inferior will take the opposite orientation. The tertiary will take the dominant orientation. This now implies eight function-attitude combinations. For each type, we have outelined four of them.

    Now, these four functions with the orientations reverse will be even further in the unconscious. (There are different "levels" of unconsciousness, so to speak). Hence, the whole "5-8=the shadows" concept.

    This is what I am trying to convey here:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...functions.html

    Everything (else) is an image of the dom/aux pair, so a reflection of them will be less conscious, but the shadows of them will be even more unsconscious.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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