User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 27

  1. #1
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,441

    Default OK, check this one out! (On the eight functions)



    Been thinking of the best way to illustrate how the eight functions fan out and relate to each other.

    This diagram shows how basically, type is really shaped by just the two preferred functions (and their associated archetypes), and the other six are generated through both reflection and shadowing. This creates a two way symmetry, where you have reverse images, and a double-reverse image, which then becomes congruent in shape to the original image. This ends up indicating certain similarities.

    Of course, it was Beebe who split off #'s "5-8" as the "shadows" of 1-4. Also, as one can gather in some of his esays, there is also a mirror dynamic, where parent becomes child, and such. I also suspected a larger overall mirror dynamic in the fact that the Anima/Animus and Opposing Personality were both "usually opposite gender", yet the demon ended up same gender. (I would have thought the demon would be opposite gender like the anima it is shadowing).

    So for a male, the hero is male, yet its initial reflection is female. It's direct shadow is also female. If you rotate the shadows to be right side up, you'll see that they are congruent to each other, and both reverse of the hero.
    The demon is the reflection of the shadow, which is a double-negative, that ends up congruent with the original positive shape. Hence, it is also male. This apparently only works with the spine archetypes.

    The arms are all presumed to be the same gender. This is probably because of the fact that the spines concern the ego's relation to self, and the arms are focused more on others.

    It also ends up yet again harmonizing with Lenore Thomson's theory. The right/left brain alternatives are the same shape as the preferred functions.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #2
    Senior Member You's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,137

    Default

    Am I the only one confused?
    Oh, its
    You
    ....

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    2,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
    Am I the only one confused?
    Nope.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #4
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,441

    Default

    OK, then what is everyone not understanding?

    You start out with a dominant and auxiliary function. This determines your type. The other functions are basically reflections or projections of these two.

    John Beebe divided the eight function positions into "spines" and "arms", because the spines stem from the dominant (the ego's main world-view), while the arms stem from the auxiliary, which is about "support". So that's why those shapes were chosen. And they were good to show the reverse images.

    So can't you see how the eight functions are being generated from two? This gives an idea of what the other positions are about.

    The child is a reflection of the parent. The more vulnerable stuff and functional perspective split off in forming the parent complex, end up as this opposite complex. The more negative stuff further split off from this, becomes the Senex or Trickster (which is a sort of a "critical parent" and "bad child" respectively).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  5. #5
    He who laughs
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    1,327

    Default

    so your idea is that the 4th function is where one finds ones anima/animus best expressed?

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    40

    Default

    I really like this illustration. The only thing I find a bit difficult to follow is the gender part. I can relate to it though as I have seen this for myself and also have seen it with others. Would you mind explaining the gender thing a bit more? The way I understand it from the illustration is that when the dominant is male then the 3rd and 6th functions are female?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    ISFP 9w1
    9-2-5

  7. #7
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,441

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    so your idea is that the 4th function is where one finds ones anima/animus best expressed?
    Yes. That again, is John Beebe who identified (or at least popularized the notion of) the anima as being associated with the inferior function.

    Anima/animus is an archetype, which lies in the collective unconscious. When we have individual experiences that fit into the archetype's particular collective frame of organization, and forms a pattern in us, it then enters the personal part of the unconscious, and become a complex (also known as an inferiority complex, in this case). When the complex is invoked, the feelings will reach us by way of the associated function.

    Fe definitely fits this for me (perhaps you can even notice how jumpy I get when I find a new brainstorm of mine is not resonating well with people).
    Quote Originally Posted by esfpmary View Post
    I really like this illustration. The only thing I find a bit difficult to follow is the gender part. I can relate to it though as I have seen this for myself and also have seen it with others. Would you mind explaining the gender thing a bit further or perhaps make an additional list of functions that turn into the opposite gender functions?
    Thanks!

    After Lenore Thomson explained to me the process of differentiation (basically, where the ego chooses one perspective and suppresses others), then Beebe's claim of the inferior usually being the opposite gender started to make sense.

    Our embryoes start out as both genders basically, until the testosterone or estrogen gets to them, and then develop one gender's features, and suppress the others. This apparently happens in the brain as well.
    So it selects our gender identity to go with the body, and the opposite one is still in there, somewhere, but suppressed.

    So when we begin differentiating our dominant function and orientation (i/e), it pairs itself with the "hero" and "persona" archetypes, and our chosen gender identity. The opposites of all of these are then suppressed, and all collect in the inferior space, so to speak. The opposite function (T vs F or S vs N), the opposite orientation (i vs e), an opposite archetype that is vulnerable rather than heroic, and a sense of the opposite gender. All the ego's sense of "not me", (in opposition to our personas).

    Again, this seems to only work for the spine (the dominant/inferior tandem) because that is the reflection of the ego's main perspective. The auxiliary/tertiary tandem is the arm, and more about others. We parent others with the aux. and sometimes look up to others with the tertiary. The gender identity seems to just default to the dominant.

    Hence, Beebe identifying the inferior with Jung's anima/animus, which were already identified as the suppressed contrasexual part of our psyche's. He does say usually, though, so it is not always so. I imagine for those with gender identity issues, things might especially be different. But I'm not sure how that works.

    We would think then that the "negative anima" (the Demon), carrying the shadow of our inferior, would also be the opposite gender. But instead, Beebe says the Opposing Personality (which directly shadows the hero) is opposite gender.
    That's what made me think some sort of mirroring dynamic was going on, in addition to shadowing. The OP must somehow be mirroring the anima. And both are the same brain hemisphere, and the same J/P function (Je, Ji, Pe or Pi).

    Another way you could illustrate this is to have the "primary" four functions with a mirror next to them, in which the shadows would be the reflections. Position #4 will be reflected as position #5 right next to it. So I had determined the best way to represent it would be to have both shadowing and mirroring.

    So any single "reversal" (though mirror reflection or shadow projection) of the dominant will be the opposite gender.
    I'm still trying to think of how to explain this. But since the hero is confident and same gender, and what is un-confident (vulnerable) and opposite gender is split off into the inferior, then a pairing of the opposite gender with what is confident or not vulnerable, is split off into this other complex, directly shadowing the hero.

    So to me, for example, the ideal image of masculinity is strong and confident, and it's perfect ideal mate is an image of femininity that is vulnerable and innocent.
    There is also an image of femininity split off from this that is confident and not innocent, and this I have recognized as the Opposing Personality. It is something I have always projected onto certain women I see, who are strong and witty, or sexy and knowing how to flaunt it and tease men with it. The total opposite of the innocent, sweet image, yet the same gender. It is a kind of power over men that I cannot posess. I feel jealous of them. And it does become associated with Te for me, and the women and characters who trigger this for me are usually TJ's.

    I was thinking of even going into this in that "You as a man/woman" thread, but I fear it might sound too weird to some (deep technical stuff in a light, not really serious topic). But it is psychically connected, for me.
    I did add a representation showing this using cartoon characters to Tamske's MBTI Comics thread a while back.

    Likewise, the Demon, as the shadow of the reflection of the dominant, ends up the same gender again. It compensates for the vulnerability of the inferior by being very reactive. So ends up same gender yet not confident like the hero. Or it is, but pretends not to be. I used Precious Pupp to represent the Demon for me, because he pretends to be innocent, and his master falls for it, but he's really devious in nature. This is what I tend to project onto people like Conservatives; especially Christian ones, when they begin moralizing with universalized judgments of right and wrong (Fi) that are not agreed upon (threatens vulnerable Fe).

    Hope all of this is not just more confusing for some of you. Deep stuff, but you really have to get the hang of the symmetries, and then a whole bunch of stuff fits together.

    Here, btw, I have made a new page just for the archetype info I had posted in the Archetypes sticky; includes full list of available Beebe resources and others:

    Understanding the Archetypes involving the eight functions of type (Beebe model)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  8. #8
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6
    Posts
    1,108

    Default

    I've thought about something a bit along these lines - how to pictorially represent the function relationships, though I've never worried about all those gender issues. To be honest with you, my own efforts fell by the waste side, as I'm not a very visual person and I found it didn't really show me any thing interesting or new anyway.

    It's certainly an interesting picture you've drawn, but I'm not sure about the relationships as you've shown them. It seems to me that the hero is more related to the demon function than the opposing, where as the anima is liked to the opposing function.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  9. #9
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,441

    Default

    You mean it seems to you that the hero is more related to the demon in your estimation, or that my illustration makes it seem that way?

    They're all related in different ways. The Opposing is the shadow of the hero, and the demon in this case is the reflection of the shadow. But what happens, is that the demon ends up as a "double negative", and thus has something in common with the hero that the opposing does not. Likewise, the anima and opposing both being direct images of the hero, and thus "[single] negatives", also representing something in common with each other.

    In the illustration it would be the same shape, instead of the reverse shape. In the theory, it would be that both are the same gender (Beebe), and also, that they are the same brain hemisphere (Thomson).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  10. #10
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6
    Posts
    1,108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    You mean it seems to you that the hero is more related to the demon in your estimation, or that my illustration makes it seem that way?

    They're all related in different ways. The Opposing is the shadow of the hero, and the demon in this case is the reflection of the shadow. But what happens, is that the demon ends up as a "double negative", and thus has something in common with the hero that the opposing does not. Likewise, the anima and opposing both being direct images of the hero, and thus "[single] negatives", also representing something in common with each other.

    In the illustration it would be the same shape, instead of the reverse shape. In the theory, it would be that both are the same gender (Beebe), and also, that they are the same brain hemisphere (Thomson).
    I mean the hero is more like the demon in my estimate. Your picture makes them seem as far a part as possible. I agree that all the functions interelate at some points.

    This does kind of illustrate why I stopped worrying about how to pictorially represent the functions. I found that by the time you knew enough to understand the picture, it was no longer needed!

    To be hinest with you Eric, I'm begining to realise just how different your understanding of the functions is to mine. I'm also starting to see just hoe incompatible the two views are. For example, you regard functions as perspectives, while I think of them as motivations/concerns. To me, a perspective is something tht gets processed through the functions, where as to you it is the functions!

    Thus, if asked to define any given function, we would be most unlikely to even agree on that, let alone how they all interlate.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

Similar Threads

  1. Why we always misunderstand one another on the Internet
    By Olm the Water King in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 09-15-2015, 09:50 AM
  2. Hey. Feeling bored? Check this thread out!!!
    By Chickennugget in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-08-2015, 02:24 AM
  3. ENTJs-Just found this funny article on The Onion
    By johnnyyukon in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 05-28-2014, 08:14 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-24-2010, 05:00 PM
  5. The Eight Functions and Fence-Building
    By INTJMom in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-15-2008, 01:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO