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  1. #81
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This is an interesting comparison of Ne and Ni. And from your definitions, I would CERTAINLY have Ni, not Ne.

    I give up. Really.

    Are you sure this is Ne vs. Ni?
    Yeah, I'm sure, but it's more of "how the functions are used," than it is "this is what a person who has the function as dominant behaves." Check out the Little Linguist video here, for an example of Ne thinking in an Ne dom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    As an Ne-dom, I can assure you, it is very difficult to stay inside my head for any amount of time.

    Pretty much the only time I'm not scanning the environment is when I'm asleep.

    And I really don't sleep that much (on average, about 4-5 hours a night, and still have plenty of energy).


    It seems like some people can't accept that Ne REALLY IS an EXTRAVERTED function.

    Why is this?

    Also---Isn't it the combination of Ne and Ji (Fi or Ti) that generates ideas in Ne-doms, rather than Ne itself?
    In the Little Linguist video I link above, she's talking about how she looks at things, but doesn't really look at things. That's totally Ne. She sees the sun, thinks of the rays shining down, and eventually her thoughts turn to religion and wondering about why people believe in religions ... when all she did was look at the sun.

    So, yes, totally extroverted, but also the environment scan induces a lot of inside-the-head thoughts.

    In INTPs and INFPs, Ne doesn't work quite that way, working from the environment first. Instead, the INxPs start off with Ji, and then Ne will often jump from there. The process can also be Ne->Ji, but usually it's from inside to outside for the introverts. This can result in creative story telling, as I depicted earlier, or it can just be their attempt to express their thoughts (Fi or Ti), using Ne to figure out the best associations to turn their ideas into words and communicate them (with varying degrees of success).

    In other words, Ne is extroverted, but it isn't always the dominant function. Other people use it differently.


    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    If it is, I fall in the category as well (granted, I've done little except brainstorm stories at this point, but I know that is how I think.. one story I have barely has a plot, let alone subplots. It's all conceptualization of background, costumes, belief systems, class structure, etc.. It's like I have to build a little stage before a good idea in terms of plot develops. In one particular case, I anthromorphized some of the animal kingdoms in the Amazon and Africa. A bit passe, I guess.. but it was only after that that I noticed a better plotline to play with them).

    I've always envied the other process (if it's Ne, so be it). "The only thing you can do on TV that you can't do in film is make a continuing story - which is so cool!" -David Lynch (he's probably an extreme example though. He just pushes forward almost any random idea or subplot. It's funny.).
    Yeah, KDude, your story brainstorming is very much Ni: you figure out the world and how it works, but actually making a story happen is a lot harder. It isn't where the Ni mindset goes.

    I'm fairly sure from his writing that Joss Whedon is an INFJ. I get the feeling that he uses Ni to develop a strong background, and then uses Fe to determine how the story should play out. He's partially using Fe to figure out what would be a dramatic and effective story, as well as for portraying the various characters.

  2. #82
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    In other words, Ne is extroverted, but it isn't always the dominant function. Other people use it differently.
    Yeah, I realize that. But even when it's not the dominant function, it's still extraverted.

    That's the part you don't seem to believe.


    Oh well. People don't really want to understand typology here. They just want to navel gaze and posit their crackpot theories.

    Keep thinking of Little Linguist as an example of an Ne-dom and your understanding of Ne will continue to be distorted.

    She's not an ENFP.

    She's an awesome ENFJ.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Interesting, Wonkavision.. Since they're not extroverts like you, how, in your opinion, does an INXP exercise Ne/"extroverted perception" in their downtime? Couldn't they be going over Si data, and using Ne in tandem (wouldn't this, in effect, sort of be a partly introverted form of Ne)? Or are they still mostly Ne in their enclosed surroundings? How would they go about generating ideas with just that? There's only so much to see that way. Yet, in practice, INXP's have plenty of ideas to share. Where are they getting them?

  4. #84
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Ugh. I just made a mistake: Equating "Si" strictly with memory. Sorry about that.

    That all aside, surely memory plays a big part in INXP (or anyone, for that matter. Then again, maybe not! It seems like it doesn't in some people).

  5. #85
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Interesting, Wonkavision.. Since they're not extroverts like you, how, in your opinion, does an INXP exercise Ne/"extroverted perception" in their downtime? Couldn't they be going over Si data, and using Ne in tandem (wouldn't this, in effect, sort of be a partly introverted form of Ne)? Or are they still mostly Ne in their enclosed surroundings? How would they go about generating ideas with just that? There's only so much to see that way. Yet, in practice, INXP's have plenty of ideas to share. Where are they getting them?
    Whoa. NO.

    I don't think INxPs are "still mostly Ne in their enclosed surroundings."

    Nothing of the sort.

    I don't think INxPs are EVER "mostly Ne."

    That doesn't make sense.


    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying though.


    But as far as how they exercise their Extraverted Perception, it would basically the same way as an Ne-dom, wouldn't it?

    I really don't know, to be honest. But it just seems to me that Extraverted Perception is Extraverted Perception, regardless of whether it's dom or aux.

    I may try to come up with a more thoughtful explanation some other time, but for now I'm content to say I'm only guessing about Secondary Ne.

    I feel much more confident talking about Dom Ne.
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  6. #86
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Yeah, I realize that. But even when it's not the dominant function, it's still extraverted.

    That's the part you don't seem to believe.


    Oh well. People don't really want to understand typology here. They just want to navel gaze and posit their crackpot theories.

    Keep thinking of Little Linguist as an example of an Ne-dom and your understanding of Ne will continue to be distorted.

    She's not an ENFP.

    She's an awesome ENFJ.
    Yes, I've noticed that people often seem to struggle with the idea that extroverted functions are action orientated. Sometimes, when I'm feeling cynical, it strikes me as an excuse to think you can exercise e type functions by sitting around thinking about stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Interesting, Wonkavision.. Since they're not extroverts like you, how, in your opinion, does an INXP exercise Ne/"extroverted perception" in their downtime? Couldn't they be going over Si data, and using Ne in tandem (wouldn't this, in effect, sort of be a partly introverted form of Ne)? Or are they still mostly Ne in their enclosed surroundings? How would they go about generating ideas with just that? There's only so much to see that way. Yet, in practice, INXP's have plenty of ideas to share. Where are they getting them?
    Ne is when the INP stops thinking about their ideas and starts living them. It's when the INTP stops doing calculations and goes down the lab to see that actually happens when you try to burn Titanium filings. It's also when the INFP stops think that charity shops are a noble idea and goes to work in one.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  7. #87
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Whoa. NO.

    I don't think INxPs are "still mostly Ne in their enclosed surroundings."

    Nothing of the sort.

    I don't think INxPs are EVER "mostly Ne."

    That doesn't make sense.


    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying though.


    But as far as how they exercise their Extraverted Perception, it would basically the same way as an Ne-dom, wouldn't it?

    I really don't know, to be honest. But it just seems to me that Extraverted Perception is Extraverted Perception, regardless of whether it's dom or aux.

    I may try to come up with a more thoughtful explanation some other time, but for now I'm content to say I'm only guessing about Secondary Ne.

    I feel much more confident talking about Dom Ne.
    Cool enough.

    And yeah, I know they're Fi/Ti dom, but when I say "mostly", I'm just wondering if they're mostly Ne in a percieving way. Or are they entrenched in Fi/Ti thought (with some Si to boot)?

    Eh.. This is getting convoluted actually. Forget that part.

    Hmm.. It's funny that I can't imagine what life is like for Ti/Fi doms anymore. What you're saying kind of puts another nail in the coffin that I ever was one.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure, but it's more of "how the functions are used," than it is "this is what a person who has the function as dominant behaves." Check out the Little Linguist video here, for an example of Ne thinking in an Ne dom.



    In the Little Linguist video I link above, she's talking about how she looks at things, but doesn't really look at things. That's totally Ne. She sees the sun, thinks of the rays shining down, and eventually her thoughts turn to religion and wondering about why people believe in religions ... when all she did was look at the sun.
    Yeah, okay, I get it. I do that too. In fact, to actually REALLY look at something -just look at it and be in the moment and use Se - without
    doing that I almost have to be in some altered state, ironically. I think for some people it's the other way around...

  9. #89
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    LL's thought process sounds rather similar to mine - moves quickly from the practical to the conceptual - but i'm not sure if that's just an N thing or really a Ne or Ni thing. i come off very differently than she does according to a few people i've asked but by no means does that make her not an ENFP. she is very original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    But as far as how they exercise their Extraverted Perception, it would basically the same way as an Ne-dom, wouldn't it?
    yes. as far as i have heard INFP/INTPs talk about aux Ne, it's very much the same - as it theoretically should be.

    Ne in anyone is still Ne. it can either be used for Ji purposes, in a Ji dom, or sifted for Ji purposes, in a Ne dom, but Ne functioning in and of itself will still be iNtuition used on external objects - jung's definition of Ne. i also think it can, via Ji, come very close to - and in some circumstances merge with or turn into - Ni. we do use all of the functions all the time, and i think we can use our dom/aux to push us to better use our shadow functions if we try.

    incidentally haha i don't sleep much either.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude
    And yeah, I know they're Fi/Ti dom, but when I say "mostly", I'm just wondering if they're mostly Ne in a percieving way. Or are they entrenched in Fi/Ti thought (with some Si to boot)?
    i agree with uumlau on this - the main difference between NeFi and FiNe would seem to be that Fi thought generally precedes/directs Ne for FiNe, whereas it generally arranges/redirects Ne for NeFi. when push comes to shove Fi dom will err to the side of Fi and Ne dom will err to the side of Ne. however, i do not believe that means that Fi dom cannot get off on a primarily Ne tangent or that Ne dom cannot delve into a primarily Fi determination - or allow any other function to take the lead, for that matter. it seems silly to think that we have to have one process overwhelmingly coopting our thought. they're simply preferences, given all else is equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    There's always that damn question of whether various functions team together and then look like one other function, or whether a person is really just using that other function (in this case, an INTJ using Ne).
    that too. and where the function combination ceases and crosses over into a single function. where is wildcat's math when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Yes, I've noticed that people often seem to struggle with the idea that extroverted functions are action orientated. Sometimes, when I'm feeling cynical, it strikes me as an excuse to think you can exercise e type functions by sitting around thinking about stuff.
    yeah, agree. Pe doms - at least speaking for the ones i know - get pretty bored pretty fast. we seek external stimulation, be that from external idea flow (thus it being okay to sit around in class for a while) or from environmental change via travel or whatever.

    and there's no question you can be a lazy Pe dom, but you're still going to seek external stimulation from the internet, etc. but ENxP would wither away if left in a jail cell to ponder, or whatever, just like our Se dom counterparts.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude
    . It's all conceptualization of background, costumes, belief systems, class structure, etc.. It's like I have to build a little stage before a good idea in terms of plot develops.
    this is how my process works too when i come up with big stories. i'm not convinced it's all Ni. i think that's just NF building atmosphere and culture and other iNtuitive/Feely stuff. in fact, i don't really even like building stories. i just like building environments. it's the downfall of my writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiltyred
    When you sit back and look at it, does it seem odd all of a sudden that we usually let the other person lead?
    yes. especially because it confuses NFPs. in general we figure that if you're suddenly silent, we've done something wrong. it doesn't make sense because of how consistent you usually are in your life otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    What I can speak to from a practical perspective is my experience as an INTJ with ENFPs. My experience is that there is a special kind of interpersonal chemistry that seems to exist. I tend to think they're funny, they cause me to lighten up, and they provide a perspective that I simply don't have. I enjoy the interaction. On the negative side, they can see me as being overly critical at times and I can feel a bit exhausted during or after the interaction with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach
    Why do Ne users never conclude? They have a judgment function. Why do they maintain an earnest innocence? A kind of seeming guilelessness. It's that openness crap. The openness to new information. So how do they actual learn anything? Ni does this compounding thing, it seems to me. But where do Ne users store their insights? Or do they store them? They must have something for Ne to work with. It does not come new and freshly formed to every new environment. They do grow in Ne ability. Where's it kept?
    we don't conclude because it's a subjective judgment function. it applies to us, but that does not mean it necessarily applies to you. Ni puts me on edge because i don't like to assume that what i can see so clearly through my own perspective is the same for everyone else. i appreciate, though do not understand, Ni accuracy.

    in addition to what poki and phobik explained, for ENFP, our Ne insights shape our Fi. thus they are stored in our Fi feelings and reactions, as well as in Si, of course. they also are output into writing and speech via Te, which we then remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Jim
    These types often lament that they feel like 'knowledge thieves' taking others ideas and seeing alternate uses for them
    i have felt that in the past. the observation is legitimate.

    though i cannot deny that i am picking up on a certain amount of subtle prejudice against Ne because it seems "superficial" and/or "stupid" to some Ni dom/aux.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Yeah, I realize that. But even when it's not the dominant function, it's still extraverted.

    That's the part you don't seem to believe.


    Oh well. People don't really want to understand typology here. They just want to navel gaze and posit their crackpot theories.

    Keep thinking of Little Linguist as an example of an Ne-dom and your understanding of Ne will continue to be distorted.

    She's not an ENFP.

    She's an awesome ENFJ.

    You also seem to think I'm ESFP, so I don't trust ya.

    No offense.

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