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  1. #61
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Regarding the OP:

    Seems like a really good analysis, except for this:



    I have no idea where you got that. It sounds absurd.


    Also, I may be mistaken, but it seems like you're overestimating the Ne user's need/desire for stimulation from the particular person they are interacting with at a given time.

    It's particularly hilarious that you seem to think Ne users find Ni users to be so engaging that they can't bear when the Ni user withdraws! (HUGE hardy-har on THAT one! ) Frankly, you guys tend to put me to sleep more often than not.

    To an Ne user, particularly a dominant Ne user, the attention does NOT generally rest for long on one thing. On the contrary, it tends to wander pretty easily and fluidly.

    So, as incredibly stimulating as a conversation with an Ni user might be, the Ne user will have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER turning her/his attention elsewhere, should the amazingly engaging (:rolli: ) Ni user decide to withdraw in contemplation.

    I realize I may be reading the wrong tone in your statements, but I'm just telling you what it sounds like to me.

    And I'm sure if I am wrong, you'll be more than happy to tell me. :rolli:
    I'm :zzz:

    But, I have to say, that as a dom Ne user, but not an uber-extrovert, I wholeheartedly agree with Ne, and in my case, Ne + Fi having a fluidity about them, the Ne can be impatient, but the Fi anchor can be exhaustingly vigorous in its need to figure things out.

    Due to my tiredness, I haven't even read this thread, or its posts, I just pseudo-scanned it.

    Ne wants to know everything about every thing, but Fi wants to know everything about one thing.

    There is a holistic hunger for truth, or rather a hunger for holistic truth.

    Dating an Ni dom, and observing them from my interactions with them via this forum, I will be the first to admit that I am still quite mystified by this function.

    I dunno, I just view N-ness as N-ness, and I guess this intuitive proclivity manifests itself differently depending on whether someone is inherently an extrovert or an introvert.

    Sorry if this post lacks detail or insight. :/

    I just felt like sharing.

    :blushing:
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    First off, you teach business, right? So, obviously you know about the law of diminishing returns... Who's to say there's not a point where one uses too much of a function (i.e., is no longer benefiting from economies of scale), and actually starts seeing negative marginal returns from additional functional usage.
    In my view you are making a slight error in reasoning. You are assuming that Ti does thinking and Fi does morals. This is in a wide part false; there is always an interaction of functions at play. You are also assuming that they develop at a measurable rate.

    They are more like an operating system your mind uses to bridge the gap between the internal conscious and the receiving and transmitting senses.

    By using Ni-Te-Fi-Se I use Ni as a preference, I rest on my internal perceiving conscious (Pi), then I receive and relay information via extroverted critical thinking (Je), then I relieve my primary function via morals and belief in conclusions generated by my subconcious (Ji) and I aspire to eventually have done enough of these things to simply sit and appreciate the sensory inputs I receive (Pe).

    This brings me back to the topic at hand. The reason that Ni is overwhelmed by Ne is that Pi and Pe are opposed aspects; Pe reaches out to Pi but finds that Pi wishes to use Je as a route to maintain its isolation which then assumes that is what Pe wants - Fi (Ji) internal justifying Ni (Pi) for relief; but Pe simply wants to engage as often as possible and it views via Ji that the Pi user is not engaging with them and therefore, this is dislike - relief via Fe (Je) what it sees externally.

    There is a reason the secondary function is labelled support and the tertiary relief in how the preference causes cognitive interaction spontaneously and at the same time (one does not simply pick up and use Ni in isolation).

    I don't think that marginal returns applies unless one experiences a mental breakdown (see shadow functions). When it becomes subconciously realised that the mode of living is simply a disaster, however, it is generally more than cognitive function that is temporarily scrambled during such a time.

    Apologies to the hard of seeing, I used a lot of acronyms above for efficiency.

  3. #63
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    In the name of efficiency I'll assume I'm capable of answering everyone at once with a single idnunastan'!

    I'm taking as fundamental the claim that preference exists as a matter of cognitive survival. It's not a matter of choice, it's a matter of what the machine is capable of once direction has been effected. Such a position does not rule out the existence of Ne and Ti in INTJs. It does however indicate that perhaps there's a lot more to be said about the mechanism that gave rise to Ni and Te in the first place and therefore what amounts and purposes this rogue Ne and Ti exist in and for.

    That's to say, it seems we can all agree that functions exist, and perhaps that functions are layered in more or less the way standard type theory suggests, but we're differing on the import of orientation in the sustained existence of personality. I seem to be saying orientation is as important as dominance, and you guys wish to allow that function orientation has... um, a subordinate role in the maintenance of personality?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #64
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I do hope that you guys know that this is just one tiny facet in/to understanding human psychology.

    That's all.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I do hope that you guys know that this is just one tiny facet in/to understanding human psychology.

    That's all.

    Don't wave your Ne/Fi at us!! We like our Ni/Te mindsets

  6. #66
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    Ni just like Si is "chart the course". It means that Ni will create a path based off of the concpet. Si will create a path based off of the details. When Ni gets access to detail it first has to reason it, then it can create the path from point A to point B by internalizing it. When Si gets concepts it has to have a sepcific instance so it has access to the detail. So Ne will submit itself to situations so it can work out the detail. But for Ne to do this it has to slow down. It has to pull into Fi/Si instead of constant Ne/Te.

    Ni path is based solely on the accuracy of the concept that is understood. If the accuracy is off so is the path. It doesnt mean that the calculations are wrong, it means they started with incorrect/incomplete data/concepts. So to Ni once the path is charted, the path is correct no matter how much more time Ni spends processing it. Unless the understanding of the concept changes then the path will stay the same. This is when internalizing will become unhealthy, and insane as you would end up repeating the same thing over and over again hoping for different results, but get nothing because you have closed yourself off from what you need to change the path.

    Ne on the other hand constantly gets fed data, constantly moves. It faces the opposite problem. It doesnt sit enough in Si to piece together the details to really chart a solid path. This doesnt mean that it cant follow through or stay focused, but that the path its going down is not solid. It has detours, rest stops, turn arounds, etc. When the SiFi begins to seep in it finds itself going back to the same places, it stops searching just to search as much and starts to slow down because it wants to.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #67
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    Good post, Poki.

    I'd never really thought of it this way...

    I would add that TeSe is what keeps an Ni dom INTJ on the "right path" (i.e., "accurate concept", or "being true to pragmatic/empirical reality"), a la FiSi in an ENFP ("being true to their feelings/memory"), or TiSi in an ENTP ("being true to their thinking/memory").

    In the Pi doms, it's the objectivity of their aux loop that keeps them on the "right path", while for Pe doms it's the subjectivity of their aux loops that keeps them on the "right path".

    This difference makes it very clear why Pi doms would be Js, and Pe doms would be Ps (by MBTI's definition): Pi doms stay "grounded/balanced" by referring to and engaging with the external world in order to balance out the inwardly-focused/subjective nature of their dominant function, while Pe doms stay "grounded/balanced" by referring to and engaging with their subjective internal world in order to balance out their outwardly focused/objective dominant functions.

    Interestingly enough, this once again points back to the problematic difference between the labeling of Jness and Pness between MBTI and Socionics.

    For ENTJs, they need to stay grounded/balanced by referring to and engaging their inwardly focused/subjective aux loop (NiFi), while INTPs need to stay grounded/balanced by referring to their externally focused/objective aux loop (NeFe).

    Interestingly enough: the NTJs seem to fall on the extremes of objectivity (TeSe) and subjectivity (NiFi) when it comes to their loops, while the NTPs seem to have more of a mixed bag/fall more in the middle when it comes to their dom and aux loops (NeFe andTiSi).

    Te+Se = SOO+OOO = 5-0/1-S = most objective loop
    Ni+Fi = OSS+SSS = 1-O/5-S = most subjective loop

    Ti+Si = SOS+OOS = 3-O/3-S = balanced loop
    Ne+Fe = OSO+SSO = 3-O/3-S = balanced loop

    I wonder whether this difference in loop extremity might be visible in the personality traits of these types...

    / thinking out loud

    Note: in the narrative, I was using the terms "objectively" and "subjectively" rather (too, really) loosely/sloppily. In the equation part near the bottom, i move to the more precise terminology, which takes into account the tripartite meaning of objective/subjective in function theory.

  8. #68
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Wild guess: that fictional network of possibilities, might the unwary, or perhaps the insightful, attempt to call that an Ne user's Ni?

    What it sounds like is an evaluation category (and associated categorical structures) created by introverted thinking judgment, but being, I guess, the category "possibly true", could that be where Ne types get their impression of using Ni?
    I wasn't explicitly trying to imply it to be Ni usage, althought, someone may find it fit, and I can understand the concept. It isn't something, for me, done as natural tendency, but more as a need, in order to maintain order [no pun intended].

    It can be used/useful to allow for the evaluation of either an plausible hypothesis, or a totally, otherwise considered, singular ridicule proposition, or entire fictional framework; size is irrelevant, as Ti will categorize it, regardless. But again, this is only used on a need basis, as a tool, not a dependency.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I do hope that you guys know that this is just one tiny facet in/to understanding human psychology.

    That's all.

    __________________
    I do hope you know everyone realises that your participation, was merely a deliberate atempt for allowing of the admiration of your ridiculously hawt avatar pic

  9. #69
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    EDIT:

    I do hope you know everyone realises that your participation, was merely a deliberate atempt for allowing of the admiration of your ridiculously hawt avatar pic
    Like... oh mah gawd nooooooooo!!!!!

    I like have oodles and ooodles of pritty pritty pictures.

    (Z wants me to post a sexay nude of me when I was 20, blame it on his inferior Se)

    God, what a cult full of dolts!!!



    kk,

    bai bai

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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