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  1. #21
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ni Preference and Interpersonal Interaction

    Ni has a more complex definition that I have failed to see anyone accurately define at all. Ni has the attitude of preferring to interpolate optimum systems from ideas based upon internal stimulus. This gives the dominant Ni types, the INTJ and INFJ's a focus on 'key symbolic ideas' which can be brought forward and optimized to build structure. Because Ni reacts to internal stimulus, these types will be external stimulus avoidant (sic. human interaction) as they would prefer space to help them solve whatever symbolic problem is running in their head.

    In human interaction these types often appear acutely observant; although they may have phased out to deal with some lingering internal conundrum. The support function adds considerably more definition to interaction as it is the external aspect. INTJs when they flip from Ni to Te will appear critical, viewing ideas as systems to be interpolated and optimized to solve any outstanding problems or to develop their understanding of ideas, with Ni providing a symbolic focus on the key aspects. INFJs will appear giving, with Fe actualising a need to empathically share what they view are the iconic themes that are driving them; expect lots of subtle but powerful emotional gestures based upon others needs.

    Therefore, dominant Ni users view intrapersonal thinking and blocking out external stimulus as the preferred opportunity available to them. If they they feel they wish to make friends or express love to another they will do so by interacting via. their secondary external aspect while dotting it with key iconic themes that their Ni prefers. They will then retreat to allow the other time to digest the concept as they would do themselves, regardless of the partner's preference. As they wish significant space and time to flex their Ni, they expect others also to wish it as a consequence.
    First, I'd like to say that I think this is quite a good description. At least, it certainly resonates with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Opposing Interpersonal Interaction

    To summarise where we are at this point it is important to note that:
    Ne types will prefer to receive and give stimulus as is their preference
    Ni types will prefer to have and give space as is their preference.

    These two functional attitudes to interpersonal interaction are directly opposed which can lead to communication confusion between Ni and Ne users.

    I have often stressed that as a dominant Ni user I often feel that any interaction with an Ne user is immediately a loss. Because my preference is to sit and ponder and introvert to have a lengthy conversation with an ENxP I lose a large portion of my ability to do so while I feed their Ne. In effect, they love it, but I lose doing what I prefer to some degree.

    The side effect of such positive interaction for the Ne dominant is that they may choose to like the Ni dominant so much that they shower them with attention, without realising that this makes the Ni dominant feel at even greater of a loss as opposed to allowing time for the Ni dominant to recover and ponder. They may then become offended because if the Ni user wishes to be friendly with them they may receed into their shell because that is the Ni preference.

    As a result it is very important to find some kind of type interaction balance between Ne and Ni users and an understanding of how the other shows affection is the flip side of what may be naturally expected.
    It is a bit difficult for me to separate out Ne vs Ni, as individual functions, and how interaction between the two plays out. What I can speak to from a practical perspective is my experience as an INTJ with ENFPs. My experience is that there is a special kind of interpersonal chemistry that seems to exist. I tend to think they're funny, they cause me to lighten up, and they provide a perspective that I simply don't have. I enjoy the interaction. On the negative side, they can see me as being overly critical at times and I can feel a bit exhausted during or after the interaction with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I'm just having the realization that Fidelia talks about of "I need to reach out more," or "I need to initiate more." Huh.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    It's really challenging for me to articulate half of what's in my head; I'm so bad at elaborating in-the-moment.
    ...

    More to the OP - I definitely need to retreat and have my own space to formulate my thoughts, make sense of them, and reach conclusions.
    I experience the same thing and it is at times frustrating to be this way. I would prefer to be more articulate in the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Personally, I have little difficulty reasoning in either direction, though I find much more naturally tend to the Ni. (Various cognitive function tests - unreliable, I know! - score me high in Ne and Ti, though Ni and Te are much higher, and Fi and the rest are lower.) I find myself getting into strange discussions on occasion, when I express this understanding of Ne, which should be a shadow, and I find myself surprised when other INTJs don't seem to get Ne, and xNTPs don't get Ni. They seem very much the same to me: not due to "confusion" of the concepts, but because I switch from one mode to the other with only minimal effort.
    I believe it's possible that we do the same thing and I have similar function test results (high Ne and Ti). Just this evening in a brainstorming session, it felt like I was flipping back and forth between Ni and Ne, as I understand them anyway. While I had an urge to "run away and think about it", the part of me that wanted to come to closure forced me to stay in the room and bounce ideas around so we could get closer as a team towards conceptual alignment. We had a lot of data and information on business drivers and trends. I wanted us to connect all of the disparate information and identify the key insights from that data so that we could decide what we were going to do. It was difficult for me to talk through it with the team in real time as the thoughts and ideas are so clearly unformed in my head.

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  2. #22
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Someone who prefers Ni is always going to take what is outside oneself, and then internally deduce what is "really going on." The actual results of the deduction are difficult to describe. Instead, either Te or Fe comes along and turns the Ni deduction into a nice pat explanation, but in practice, the explanation changes depending on context, and Ni is always shifting the context.
    Ni can't deduce. It can compound.

    The primary difference I find in communication between Ne and Ni is, literally, the objective/subjective divide. I know (intuitively--booyah) that when I articulate some vision, or make some joke, I'm delving into an inner world. It is, prima facie, an alternate vision of reality. And I know Ne people have trouble with it for exactly that reason. It's not real, they think, it's just a possibility. Which ignores all the compounding that's been going on for years. That alternate vision of reality is a compound vision, built up from years of perceiving inner worlds (and sometimes relating them to outer worlds).

    I believe that in general to switch from Ni to Ne is to halt that compounding process. One cares less for collecting visions together and more for spotting what's actually going on right now. Compounding is over, ecstatic immediate insight is begun.

    So, yeah, I think you're wrong about switching direction. I think you're probably describing some more sophisticated behavioral use of Ni resources rather than some change in basic cognitive functioning.

    Someone who prefers Ne is always intuiting external patterns, and the judging functions (Fi or Ti) internalize observations. The intuitive process is visible for everyone to see, by its very nature. There is typically no pat explanation to others: the final deductions are internalized.
    Why do Ne users never conclude? They have a judgment function. Why do they maintain an earnest innocence? A kind of seeming guilelessness. It's that openness crap. The openness to new information. So how do they actual learn anything? Ni does this compounding thing, it seems to me. But where do Ne users store their insights? Or do they store them? They must have something for Ne to work with. It does not come new and freshly formed to every new environment. They do grow in Ne ability. Where's it kept?

    I think in some sense it's kept "out there". As they grow increasingly aware of the patterns that exist in the world, they recognise them more often (and move on to more sophisticated versions or to wholly different environments). They don't compound insights into new items so much as they map what's there. (And there'll be some Si library of some kind, but that's another story.) Or so I imagine.

    With that kind of discussion in mind, I'd be saying that Ni and Ne, behaviourally speaking, can perform the tasks of one another. Cognitively speaking though, they're formed in different directions and seemingly by different processes, and it seems to me ultimately do end up with different content. But behaviorally.......



    /thesis.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #23
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Regarding the OP:

    Seems like a really good analysis, except for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post

    These types often lament that they feel like 'knowledge thieves' taking others ideas and seeing alternate uses for them
    I have no idea where you got that. It sounds absurd.


    Also, I may be mistaken, but it seems like you're overestimating the Ne user's need/desire for stimulation from the particular person they are interacting with at a given time.

    It's particularly hilarious that you seem to think Ne users find Ni users to be so engaging that they can't bear when the Ni user withdraws! (HUGE hardy-har on THAT one! ) Frankly, you guys tend to put me to sleep more often than not.

    To an Ne user, particularly a dominant Ne user, the attention does NOT generally rest for long on one thing. On the contrary, it tends to wander pretty easily and fluidly.

    So, as incredibly stimulating as a conversation with an Ni user might be, the Ne user will have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER turning her/his attention elsewhere, should the amazingly engaging (:rolli: ) Ni user decide to withdraw in contemplation.

    I realize I may be reading the wrong tone in your statements, but I'm just telling you what it sounds like to me.

    And I'm sure if I am wrong, you'll be more than happy to tell me. :rolli:
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  4. #24
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    *these last two posts have given the thread quite the interesting turn*

    In storytelling terms, I believe we would say we just entered "Conflict"...

    (and there's two of em! )

  5. #25
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post

    I believe that in general to switch from Ni to Ne is to halt that compounding process. One cares less for collecting visions together and more for spotting what's actually going on right now. Compounding is over, ecstatic immediate insight is begun.
    I'm not so sure.

    From what I understand, there are at least a couple of theories floating around about the development of functions after the dominant and auxiliary.

    Theory 1 - The opposite attitudes of the dominant and auxiliary function attitudes are developed as the third and forth preferred function attitudes. I think this is perhaps true for me personally.
    Theory 2 - Functions develop in an order something along the lines of what Beebe suggests, with Tertiary and Inferior following, but that the remaining four functions develop in a sequence demanded by an individual's circumstances.

    Either Theory 1 or Theory 2 could explain why Uumlau and I think we use Ne and Ti with some level of adeptness.

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Regarding the OP:

    Seems like a really good analysis, except for this:

    I have no idea where you got that. It sounds absurd.

    Also, I may be mistaken, but it seems like you're overestimating the Ne user's need/desire for stimulation from the particular person they are interacting with at a given time.

    It's particularly hilarious that you seem to think Ne users find Ni users to be so engaging that they can't bear when the Ni user withdraws! (HUGE hardy-har on THAT one! ) Frankly, you guys tend to put me to sleep more often than not.

    To an Ne user, particularly a dominant Ne user, the attention does NOT generally rest for long on one thing. On the contrary, it tends to wander pretty easily and fluidly.

    So, as incredibly stimulating as a conversation with an Ni user might be, the Ne user will have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER turning her/his attention elsewhere, should the amazingly engaging (:rolli: ) Ni user decide to withdraw in contemplation.

    I realize I may be reading the wrong tone in your statements, but I'm just telling you what it sounds like to me.

    And I'm sure if I am wrong, you'll be more than happy to tell me. :rolli:
    The reason I posted this thread was to prove that is nigh impossible to have a serious MBTI discussion on this forum without it descending into misunderstanding and debacle.

    That quote when used elsewhere was actually given kudos by other dominant Ne users; ENTPs seem to strongly relate to it. Don't get your knickers in a twist over a loose definition.

    Ne engages with its environment to find stimulus and idea exchange (by definition). It requires external stimulus to grow and invent new ideas. As a dominant Ne user you excel at taking ideas from elsewhere and finding brand new uses for them elsewhere almost spontaneously.

    The direction of this article is more around Ne/Ni in a reasonably constant relationship, I'm not talking about bumping into a person for 2 minutes or 5, perhaps over a number of years in a close friendship or in a relationship as this is often where serious problems arise. Ne/Ni dominants have very different interaction over a short space of time.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    From what I understand, there are at least a couple of theories floating around about the development of functions after the dominant and auxiliary.

    Theory 1 - The opposite attitudes of the dominant and auxiliary function attitudes are developed as the third and forth preferred function attitudes. I think this is perhaps true for me personally.
    Theory 2 - Functions develop in an order something along the lines of what Beebe suggests, with Tertiary and Inferior following, but that the remaining four functions develop in a sequence demanded by an individual's circumstances.
    I believe it's some mixture of those two theories.

    For some people it might be more one, for others more the other.

    I am by no means a believer in strict MBTI function order.

    Any theory with such rigidity reeks of falsity to me...

    I actually tend to score higher on my Ti than Te, usually.

    Whenever I look at the questions for individual function strengths, it surprises me how they barely mention logic skillz having to do with Te.

    It almost seems like Ti owns the whole logical analysis department...

    Not sure whether you guys checked out that Mindframes test, but they divide the mind up into 8 "mindframes", that roughly correlate to the functions, imo.

    The interesting thing is: they get rid of the Judging and Perceiving functions criteria (which, to be honest, I've always found a little bit tenuous), and replace it by saying that the 4 extroverted mindframes/functions are "Action-oriented" and the 4 introverted mindframes/functions are "Thinking-oriented"...

    Anyway, Jim, I'm glad to have helped moving this thread a little closer to your preconceived hypothesis.

  8. #28
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post

    Don't get your knickers in a twist over a loose definition.
    Nobody's getting their knickers in a twist, with the possible exception of you.

    As I said at the beginning of my first post, I think it's a really good analysis.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    The reason I posted this thread was to prove that is nigh impossible to have a serious MBTI discussion on this forum without it descending into misunderstanding and debacle.

    That quote when used elsewhere was actually given kudos by other dominant Ne users; ENTPs seem to strongly relate to it. Don't get your knickers in a twist over a loose definition.

    Ne engages with its environment to find stimulus and idea exchange (by definition). It requires external stimulus to grow and invent new ideas. As a dominant Ne user you excel at taking ideas from elsewhere and finding brand new uses for them elsewhere almost spontaneously.

    The direction of this article is more around Ne/Ni in a reasonably constant relationship, I'm not talking about bumping into a person for 2 minutes or 5, perhaps over a number of years in a close friendship or in a relationship as this is often where serious problems arise. Ne/Ni dominants have very different interaction over a short space of time.

    I see Wonka's point, actually. While I was reading your post, I was thinking "Is this a girl that likes you or something?" Simply because I can't imagine the average Ne dom chasing down endlessly fascinating Ni doms to the point of doing what you're talking about, outside of some sort of relationship/romantic/crush context, seriously.

    You may have encountered an EXTREME EXTROVERT (as an aside, SimWorld is both an Ne dom and like a 99.9% extrovert, so I'm also wondering if he is who you mean) who you have this problem with, just because they are an extreme extrovert, not because they are Ne dom. I generally have this problem with ESxx and really want them to STFU and go away a lot of the time, even if I like that person or even consider them a very dear friend or beloved family member.

  10. #30
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    As we all know, nobody scores nuthin on nuthin. The function use tests depend crucially on your interpretation of the test questions, and (as far as I know) are always equivocal. Indeed, for the function use tests to actually work properly, you'd have to already have a fairly good self-representation of what kind of cognition you actually do engage in, and how to differentiate it when answering questions about your habits of personality.

    And Beebe is wrong about something. I'm not sure what he is wrong about, but there's something about the foundation of his theory of development that seems partial, perhaps most especially to persons with Ne/Si as a core development.

    So-o-o-...

    I think it's probably possible to put Ni operation on hold and focus outside of oneself to play with ideas. I bet when you do it, it uses a lot of stuff you already thought of, and more crucially, it most closely resembles re-interpreting the outside world, often with an absurd or comical slant. If your "Ne" often takes the form of "Well, if what we were just talking about is so, then it's probably because of the aliens--they're among us, you know? And that's why so many people are afraid of green. [Etc and so developing wilder and wilder implications]". If that's the "Ne" you guys are doing, then it's Ni.

    (Or more technically, it's Te being straight man and Ni playing the comic.)


    And Ne people don't do it that way. They change the subject when one begins rattling off that way.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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