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  1. #31
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    fairness to me is exactly what is in the dictionary:

    fair

    6.
    a. Having or exhibiting a disposition that is free of favoritism or bias; impartial: a fair mediator.
    b. Just to all parties; equitable: a compromise that is fair to both factions.
    7. Being in accordance with relative merit or significance: She wanted to receive her fair share of the proceeds.
    8. Consistent with rules, logic, or ethics: a fair tactic.


    You will frequently see the words fair, fairness, or just, on the T side, and the opposing choices on the F side might be mercy and compassion. Utter stupidity, but true. As if someone can't hand down a fair/equitable decision to both parties and also be a compassionate person? This is how stereotypes and caricatures are created. But my point is that both a T and an F person could want to choose the word fair or just, but perhaps for different reasons.
    Completely agree with ya on this. And actually, I'd say fairness and justness actually are instances of an F function.

    Not that a T can't use an F function or anything.

    See, this is where people might miss my point. Fairness is a value-judgment so it's an instance of Feeling. But T-types use Feeling all the time (and vice versa).

    On a personal note, I think T and F are not so cut and dry for people to begin with. That is certainly reflected in the fact that the T/F scale is also the one with the weakest reliability out of all of them.
    I agree that it's not so cut and dry FOR PEOPLE. But the functions themselves should be cut and dry.

  2. #32
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Something that is Feeling is by definition not Thinking, Sensing, or Intuition.

    But something that is based on the internal standard does NOT necessarily oppose something that is based on the external standard or vice versa. So an instance of Fi can literally look the same as an instance of Fe as long as the internal and external standards are compatible. And often, they are compatible.

    ------------------------

    Using your shark fin example, here are Fi and Fe explanations for all three instances:
    1. "If I take a stand and berate him for it"
    Fe - it's important to make a stand so that opinions may be affected
    Fi - it's important to make a stand because I stand up for what I believe

    2. "If I think that it's a courtesy to the host to eat whatever is offered"
    Fe - it's important to send the message that I am polite
    Fi - it's important to me to be polite

    3. "If I take a stand and just avoid eating the soup"
    Fe - I don't want to affect the environment in a negative way, so I won't eat the soup.
    Fi - I don't want to compromise myself, so I won't eat the soup.

    My point here is that there is no way to know just by observing those behaviors in someone else whether they are basing their decisions on the internal or external standard. Therefore there is no way to distinguish between Fe and Fi in those situations. Therefore trying to distinguish is just a waste of time and effort. You'd be better served conversation-wise to use other adjectives relevant to the point you want to make. No reason to use the 8 function model here at all. It's just not within the scope of the 8 function model to conclude something like this.
    Great point! This is why some oof is have started to view functions (and function-attitudes) as "perspectives", rather than behaviors or skills.

    As for truth, fairness, etc. These are the products of Judgment in general. T/F and internal or external orientation are determined by the standards the judgments are based on.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  3. #33
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    ^Nice, that venn diagram exemplifies what I'm talking about with the overlap of introversion/extroversion. When you're in the middle of the diagram, you should forget the distinction between Fi and Fe. When you're on the outside, have at it.

    I just see people wasting all this time trying to label stuff they can't possibly label.

    Edit: if you made a diagram with Thinking/Feeling/Sensing/Intution, they would all be mutually exclusive.

    Imagine cognition as a big box. Draw a line through it to split it into perception and judgment. Now draw lines through the middle of perception and judgment and you're left with 4 mutually exclusive areas that still cover all of cognition.
    A few points:
    - I agree there is value in understanding if someone is using "intuition" or "sensing", for example. Some knowledge is better than none.
    - That being said, it does seem that there are fundamental and significant differences between introverted and extraverted attitudes of the functions. Having an understanding that one or the other is used, is far more valuable.
    - It easier to recognize the extraverted ones and those that are more common in the population. It's also very easy for us to get these things wrong and the mistakes aren't limited to I vs. E (say mistaking Ni vs Si or the other way around).

    I think it's possible for one to develop skills in assessing what functions people seem to be using around them though it would seem far more difficult to assess someone's type. But if you got really good at it, you might be able to make a reasonable guess or at least eliminate some possibilities.

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  4. #34
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    A few points:
    - I agree there is value in understanding if someone is using "intuition" or "sensing", for example. Some knowledge is better than none.
    - That being said, it does seem that there are fundamental and significant differences between introverted and extraverted attitudes of the functions. Having an understanding that one or the other is used, is far more valuable.
    - It easier to recognize the extraverted ones and those that are more common in the population. It's also very easy for us to get these things wrong and the mistakes aren't limited to I vs. E (say mistaking Ni vs Si or the other way around).
    There are fundamental differences between the attitudes, yes, but sometimes the output of them is literally impossible to decipher. There is no rule saying the internal standard and the external standard have to be at odds (and those are what define i/e of functions). I think if you can decipher the attitude, you should. But don't waste your time on it if it's not readily apparent. Because if it's not readily apparent, it's probably not descriptively useful.

    I don't see how you could mistake S for N, though. If it's about a thing, it's S. If it's not, it's N. There shouldn't be overlap there.

    Whether or not a person is an S or N is a completely different story. That may be extremely difficult. But if you narrow your scope to specific instances of perceiving functions, you shouldn't have much trouble differentiating. You have to look at those labels over time to determine the type of a person as opposed to which function they are currently using.

    I think it's possible for one to develop skills in assessing what functions people seem to be using around them though it would seem far more difficult to assess someone's type. But if you got really good at it, you might be able to make a reasonable guess or at least eliminate some possibilities.
    Right.

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