User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 34

  1. #11
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Exactly. If you're watching an INFP for a while, they'll definitely do some things that seem Fi and some that seem Fe. (More that seem Fi, I would think )

    The trap that I see people falling into, though, is confirmation bias-ing themselves into labeling all uses of Feeling from that person as Fi (because you can always come up with a narrative that could explain how it could be Fi). The problem is, you could probably describe a lot of those behaviors as Fe just as easily. People tend not to call the behaviors Fe, though, because they want MBTI to be all nice and neat. That's the problem I'm trying to articulate here.

  2. #12
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,440

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    So my wife (ESFJ) and I (ISFP) are the same type in this instance? FSNT?
    No, because your dominant orientation is internal, and hers is external. So you may share the same function preference, however, it't the different orientation that makes you different. It also affects the other functions, which for you are reegated to the external world, and for her, the internal world. With the exception of the tertiary defense aligning that function with the the dominant orientation.

    This way of looking at it simply associates "attitude" with the ego, rather than with the functions. But it is describing the same effect.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  3. #13
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Exactly. If you're watching an INFP for a while, they'll definitely do some things that seem Fi and some that seem Fe. (More that seem Fi, I would think )

    The trap that I see people falling into, though, is confirmation bias-ing themselves into labeling all uses of Feeling from that person as Fi (because you can always come up with a narrative that could explain how it could be Fi). The problem is, you could probably describe a lot of those behaviors as Fe just as easily. People tend not to call the behaviors Fe, though, because they want MBTI to be all nice and neat. That's the problem I'm trying to articulate here.
    Well, it would look Fe from the outside but internally isn't it still Fi making the decision?

    Rough example :
    Say I love sharks and think killing sharks for food is not a nice thing. I attend a dinner at a friend's house and he is serving shark's fin soup.

    If I take a stand and berate him for it, it's Fi?
    If I think that it's a courtesy to the host to eat whatever is offered, is it Fe?
    If I take a stand and just avoid eating the soup, it's Fi/Fe?
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #14
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Well, it would look Fe from the outside but internally isn't it still Fi making the decision?

    Rough example :
    Say I love sharks and think killing sharks for food is not a nice thing. I attend a dinner at a friend's house and he is serving shark's fin soup.

    If I take a stand and berate him for it, it's Fi?
    If I think that it's a courtesy to the host to eat whatever is offered, is it Fe?
    If I take a stand and just avoid eating the soup, it's Fi/Fe?
    See all three of those situations could be explained in a narrative of Fi or Fe. That's why I think people should stop trying so hard to make it ONLY one of them. Instead, why not just call it F? Seems much simpler and doesn't lead to all the confusion of trying to distinguish between the two, which doesn't even help in terms of descriptive usefulness anyway.

    I'm not saying just call it F in every situation. But if you're looking at a more human-level-interaction that has all the complexities of interpersonal relationships, Fe and Fi may be indistinguishable a lot of the time. So, when you're having a hard time distinguishing, why not just give up and use your energy describing what you mean with words outside of the MBTI language? It would sure as hell be more efficient than sitting there for five minutes trying to justify why that action was introverted or extroverted.

    You're right to be confused about whether those things are Fi or Fe. Because it's damn confusing. And it's a part of MBTI analysis I wish people would just give up on and stop wasting time trying to label everything so damn specifically.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,436

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    T and F do not overlap whatsoever. If it's a value-label, it's F, if it's a truth-label it's T. I'm not saying it's easy to tell which is which in all situations, especially because you need all four functions to DO anything. But you can always break it down and figure out which parts are which, at least in terms of N, S, T, and F. You cannot do this consistently with Fi vs. Fe, though. It just isn't the same kind of conclusion to make.

    If you can distinguish truth-labels from value-labels, you can distinguish T and F. But introversion and extroversion of a specific function can have multiple consistent analyses -- for example, saying "that's bad" out loud could easily be an instance of either Feeling function (Fe or Fi). But it MUST be F and not T. There is no way to call that T. (unless you want to be wrong)
    True or False is not the same as truth, Evan. Truth and fairness are what a lot of people value. Truth and fairness should not automatically go to the T side on a test, but they usually do. Context matters.
    The future is for the unafraid.

  6. #16
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Well, it would look Fe from the outside but internally isn't it still Fi making the decision?

    Rough example :
    Say I love sharks and think killing sharks for food is not a nice thing. I attend a dinner at a friend's house and he is serving shark's fin soup.

    If I take a stand and berate him for it, it's Fi?
    If I think that it's a courtesy to the host to eat whatever is offered, is it Fe?
    If I take a stand and just avoid eating the soup, it's Fi/Fe?
    Fwiw, 3 is more like me... I guess I'm polite about declining things like that. Maybe when I was younger, I might have an issue over something similar and inject some commentary about it. There comes a point that you just shoot yourself in the foot for that kind of stuff though. I suppose the Fe side is telling me to pick my battles right.

  7. #17
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    T and F do not overlap whatsoever. If it's a value-label, it's F, if it's a truth-label it's T. I'm not saying it's easy to tell which is which in all situations, especially because you need all four functions to DO anything. But you can always break it down and figure out which parts are which, at least in terms of N, S, T, and F. You cannot do this consistently with Fi vs. Fe, though. It just isn't the same kind of conclusion to make.

    If you can distinguish truth-labels from value-labels, you can distinguish T and F. But introversion and extroversion of a specific function can have multiple consistent analyses -- for example, saying "that's bad" out loud could easily be an instance of either Feeling function (Fe or Fi). But it MUST be F and not T. There is no way to call that T. (unless you want to be wrong)
    There are many reasons a person may make such a statement aloud that has nothing to do with either of the F functions.

    T and F can overlap when it comes to their orientation - that was my point you conveniently overlooked. It's not simply whether one is value or logic based (drop the inaccurate T=truth crap, UGH). Te & Fe use some kind of external measure for their judgments, which is a LOT to have in common.

    Again, what you're saying is only one way to categorize the functions, a way which MBTI already utilizes and which has obvious flaws.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #18
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Okay, I was just in the shower and I figured out how to actually articulate my point here.

    Something that is Feeling is by definition not Thinking, Sensing, or Intuition.

    But something that is based on the internal standard does NOT necessarily oppose something that is based on the external standard or vice versa. So an instance of Fi can literally look the same as an instance of Fe as long as the internal and external standards are compatible. And often, they are compatible.

    ------------------------

    Using your shark fin example, here are Fi and Fe explanations for all three instances:
    1. "If I take a stand and berate him for it"
    Fe - it's important to make a stand so that opinions may be affected
    Fi - it's important to make a stand because I stand up for what I believe

    2. "If I think that it's a courtesy to the host to eat whatever is offered"
    Fe - it's important to send the message that I am polite
    Fi - it's important to me to be polite

    3. "If I take a stand and just avoid eating the soup"
    Fe - I don't want to affect the environment in a negative way, so I won't eat the soup.
    Fi - I don't want to compromise myself, so I won't eat the soup.

    My point here is that there is no way to know just by observing those behaviors in someone else whether they are basing their decisions on the internal or external standard. Therefore there is no way to distinguish between Fe and Fi in those situations. Therefore trying to distinguish is just a waste of time and effort. You'd be better served conversation-wise to use other adjectives relevant to the point you want to make. No reason to use the 8 function model here at all. It's just not within the scope of the 8 function model to conclude something like this.

  9. #19
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    yeahhh. this has occurred to me especially when taking functional tests. like, Fe and Fi, they're kind of muddled. sometimes you can do something for a Fi reason that looks like Fe, or vice versa. or it's hard to tell which it is. or maybe it's just both.

  10. #20
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Another thing, consider that civilization has been going on for thousands of years.. some societies and/or creeds that might have a general "accepted" norm of behavior or whatnot would be recognized as valid on both Fi or Fe levels. So it's not like only Fe is aware of them, and that Fi is constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. Fi isn't saying "Yeah, I am an individualistic jerk to whatever is accepted as a social value." There are departing points, but I don't think it's usually that dramatic.

Similar Threads

  1. Based on my list of functions, what is my MBTI type?
    By lapinchocolat in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-16-2015, 08:20 PM
  2. You know you spend too much time on this forum when....
    By SolitaryWalker in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-30-2013, 07:02 PM
  3. signs you might spend too much time on Typoc
    By prplchknz in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-03-2012, 06:14 PM
  4. [INFJ] What do you do when you're worrying too much about what others think of you?
    By SilkRoad in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 06-13-2011, 06:01 PM
  5. You know you spend too much time on Typ C....
    By Riva in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 12-15-2009, 03:49 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO