User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 14

  1. #1
    garbage
    Guest

    Default Judging as internal functions, perceiving as external functions

    I didn't want this to be lost in the shuffle of its thread, so I'm reposting this again.

    I also wanted to give Psychdigg some credit for his idea..

    This is pretty much 'blasphemy' in the world of Jungian functions. But I don't particularly care. So here it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychdigg View Post
    There is no such thing as Fe, Ni, Te, Si These are all justifications for Jungs flawed dichotomous structuring of his categories.

    Feeling is Introverted - it is "inside" If you are feeling something outside of your body you are probably doing something or somebody.

    Intuition is Extroverted - etymologically Intuition originally meant "to see" Seeing is based on what is out there in the real world. If you are seeing "inside" of yourself you are really doing some visual thinking.

    Sensation is Extroverted - it is practical. It refers to actions and movement. You move things in your environment - externally. If you are moving something inside your head it is called "thinking" or planning-first I'll do this, next I'll do that and then I'll do...

    Thinking is Introverted. It is "inside" your brain. You are working with data that you have collected "in". If you are thinking in the external world you may be talking to yourself out loud and may be crazy.
    Aside from the 'snarky' bits, there might be some merit to this interpretation. Judging 'internally' and perceiving 'externally' actually makes some sense. More generally, combining the extraverted and introverted versions of functions makes for a less complicated and potentially more valid system--gotta get the overall picture right before trying to make a theory that explains the details--so long as meaning, fidelity, and accuracy aren't sacrificed.

    The view that I quoted may only speak from the Perceiving perspective--external perceiving, internal judging. A Judging perspective may look completely different, and I'm wondering what that perspective might be for each of the four functions.


    So, thoughts?

    Is there anything that this view doesn't account for? Does it speak to you or resonate with you? Is there merit in combining the extraverted and introverted versions of the functions?

  2. #2
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    Introverted Judgement has little to do with the internal phenomenon of "Feeling" or "Thinking". Ti is introverted in the sense of being a framework of underlying principles/definitions/systematic approaches, and how it applies these to emerging variables, but it's not to be equated with the actual "act" of thinking. Te is called extraverted for being focused on how things in the outside relate or can be organized in a sort of case-by-case or utilitarian basis. To simplify it.. I don't want to waste your time defining Ti or Te. That all said, without even having to reference Jung, it's still kind of "blasphemy" because you can see how introverted or extroverted judgement are oriented and play out differently in people. That not all T's or all F's are the same. And it has nothing to do with "doing" anything half of the time, yet you can still see the difference in how Ti or Te would discuss a subject or approach problems differently. Same goes for F's. They are different enough to seperate in my opinion.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    Feeling is Introverted - it is "inside" If you are feeling something outside of your body you are probably doing something or somebody.
    Have you ever screwed up your feeling function? Screw with your thoughts, your wants, and convince yourself that you want to do something. You ever hate being controlled so much you have to find a way around it to control yourself. Feelings are not always as they seem. We may let you in, but most of the time we have on a facade that is real, that we created. It is who we are, but its not directly related to how we feel.

    Intuition is Extroverted - etymologically Intuition originally meant "to see" Seeing is based on what is out there in the real world. If you are seeing "inside" of yourself you are really doing some visual thinking.
    This is tricky as there is an internal "vision" as well as external. would seem more to fit in with the opposite of Se. Which Ne is actually concious of, a thing called Si. Ni though is manipulating things inside our head in regard to patterns. Stepping sideways, playing with whats said, with whats not said, playing with this horizontal movement as opposed to a linear "connect the dots" style path. Its not thought, its not feeling, its shifting internally. All that is seen externally is the things that are made present in that shift. Its like connect the dot puzzles.

    Sensation is Extroverted - it is practical. It refers to actions and movement. You move things in your environment - externally. If you are moving something inside your head it is called "thinking" or planning-first I'll do this, next I'll do that and then I'll do...
    Doing this INSIDE your head could easily be equated to Introverted sensation. Its the same thing as Se, but inside your head. Its the introverted version of the extroverted function. Maybe this is to simple.

    Thinking is Introverted. It is "inside" your brain. You are working with data that you have collected "in". If you are thinking in the external world you may be talking to yourself out loud and may be crazy.
    thinking is the internal thing you do that is not Si, Ni, nor Fi. I wish I could explain more, but I cant as I am in thought right now...your better off looking at what I type to understand what thinking is to me instead of having me try to explain what it is.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #4
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Sure, perceiving is extroverted in that it brings information to your conscious mind from, well, somewhere else. And judging is introverted in that it is your mind's specific way of sorting through that information.

    But the other way to use extroversion and introversion isn't problematic. So why change it to something so anti-conventional?

    I see your point. I just don't think any terminology should be changed. I'd agree with you more if you didn't even use the words introversion and extroversion at all. Just said "perceiving interacts with some stuff and gives your consciousness some shit to process" and "judging is personal and specific to the individual".

  5. #5
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    To begin with I thought, why its right, one is internal while the other is external but then I thought about it for a bit and no, its not really the case, think about it how does each function look or what does it involve when you deploy it to serve the ego?

    The operate the same because they are internal functions of the mind, cognitive, ie thinking, functions, so they wouldnt "look" any different from the outside, though the behaviour mind be different the process itself is not visual to an other person, so it cant be said to be external, you know?

  6. #6
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILE Ti
    Posts
    3,644

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I didn't want this to be lost in the shuffle of its thread, so I'm reposting this again.

    I also wanted to give Psychdigg some credit for his idea..

    This is pretty much 'blasphemy' in the world of Jungian functions. But I don't particularly care. So here it is:



    Aside from the 'snarky' bits, there might be some merit to this interpretation. Judging 'internally' and perceiving 'externally' actually makes some sense. More generally, combining the extraverted and introverted versions of functions makes for a less complicated and potentially more valid system--gotta get the overall picture right before trying to make a theory that explains the details--so long as meaning, fidelity, and accuracy aren't sacrificed.

    The view that I quoted may only speak from the Perceiving perspective--external perceiving, internal judging. A Judging perspective may look completely different, and I'm wondering what that perspective might be for each of the four functions.


    So, thoughts?

    Is there anything that this view doesn't account for? Does it speak to you or resonate with you? Is there merit in combining the extraverted and introverted versions of the functions?
    Psychdigg is essentially incapable of understanding metaphor. He completely misjudged what extroversion and introversion means in this context.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
    Sage, True Neutral (Chaotic Good), Type III Anti-Hero
    Inventive > Artistic > Leisurely > Dramatic
    7w6 > 4w3 > 9w8, weakside sp/so

    Dark Worker (Sacrificing)
    Freewheeling Designer

    Hayekian Asshole


  7. #7
    morose bourgeoisie
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,859

    Default

    If you break it down all the way, there is only sensory stimulation and cognition.

  8. #8
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,438

    Default

    So under this new system of blasphemy, what will we call the things that we currently refer to as Te and Fe? Or are you saying that people don't really do those things at all?

  9. #9
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    who ever wrote that is a retard. I doesent mean internal process and e external process, i means that the function is working things in the inside world and e means that the function is working things in the external world.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  10. #10
    garbage
    Guest

    Default

    Perhaps breaking this stuff into the eight cognitive functions is the only way for the theory to explain anything. If it's not necessary, then I think the more "broad base" approach is important to get right--explain and/or validate that first, then delve into the details.

    Reducing complexity reduces the scope of the model. A simpler model wouldn't aim to explain the exact order of cognitive processes in individual types.


    The first step would be something along the lines of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    If you break it down all the way, there is only sensory stimulation and cognition.
    Which, well, is pretty much valid.


    From there, how do we break down functionality?

    The next step seems to be getting "perceiving" and "judging" right. The OP seems to be an attempt at defining sensory stimulation as Intuition/Sensing, and cognition as Thinking/Feeling.

    We've also got alternative approaches:

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I see your point. I just don't think any terminology should be changed. I'd agree with you more if you didn't even use the words introversion and extroversion at all. Just said "perceiving interacts with some stuff and gives your consciousness some shit to process" and "judging is personal and specific to the individual".
    Your approach here does seem better than using terms such as introversion and extroversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    So under this new system of blasphemy, what will we call the things that we currently refer to as Te and Fe? Or are you saying that people don't really do those things at all?
    People definitely do these things, but the point is that they might be considered internal processes.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    who ever wrote that is a retard. I doesent mean internal process and e external process, i means that the function is working things in the inside world and e means that the function is working things in the external world.
    It seems that the OP understood this, but that he's making the case that Thinking and Feeling work internally, and Sensing and Intuition work externally.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Doing this INSIDE your head could easily be equated to Introverted sensation. Its the same thing as Se, but inside your head. Its the introverted version of the extroverted function. Maybe this is to simple.
    Maybe it isn't too simple--this sort of definition might be the best way to reduce complexity.

Similar Threads

  1. [JCF] cognitive functions questions, integration, and infj as NiTi
    By the state i am in in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-21-2012, 03:51 PM
  2. using first function as shield against world
    By INTP in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10-31-2009, 10:34 PM
  3. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 03-06-2009, 08:42 PM
  4. 'Judging' versus 'Perceiving' Leading Function
    By Haphazard in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-17-2008, 11:43 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO