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  1. #61
    Ginkgo
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    Damnit.

    I just realized that I was wrong.

  2. #62
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I like the fact that you used an artistic analogy. Some time ago, I had a PM with a pal and I used a symphony orchestra as my analogy. I suggested that ALL the FA's were playing simultaneously with the volume of the instruments rising and falling from our consciousness, but still playing all the while. Just because we hear the violins and horns peaking, doesn't mean the piano isn't playing in the background.

    Like yourself, I don't much care for having a rigid picture of how we operate. To me, the brain flows with ease. It doesn't stop at toll booths to yell, "Hey baby, punch my card so I can head to the next stop!"
    very true... I can't picture how any single function can work seperatly from any other- none can stand on their own- they need the support of others in a way- they're just building blocks, they're not the be all, end all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Damnit.

    I just realized that I was wrong.
    *ruffles the potato's hair*

    it happens to the best of us from time to time
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #63
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Changing the nomenclature in every book ever written on the topic will clarify nothing. We already have all of the following being used by different authors, to represent the same thing:

    Function Attitudes
    Jungian Processes
    Jungian Functions
    Cognitive processes
    Mental processes

    Take your pick.
    We're not arguing as to the names of the concept, we're arguing on words to describe them. What are function attitudes, or processes?

    Do you recall this exchange?
    Look familiar?

    Definition of a process by Linda V. Berens:

    Source: Dynamics of personality type: understanding and applying Jung's cognitive processes.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=caE...page&q&f=false
    And I still do not knock the term "processes" like you claimed; though I do shun "activities the system engages in as it functions in day-to-day life...They are best described using verbs that indicate actions." That's my one disagreement with her.
    But even she describes them in terms of "Philosoph[ies] of Life" in that book on the top of the page for each process, and those seem to be her best descriptions of them.

    The Philosophy of Life that engages...
    Se: There is always more to be experienced, and opportunities don't last.
    Si: There is always a comparison to be made, and if it is familiar, it is to be trusted
    Ne: There are always other perspectives and new meanings to discover
    Ni: There is always a future to realize and a significance to be revealed
    Te: Everything can be logical, structured and organized
    Ti: Everything can be explained and understood in terms of how it works
    Fe: Everything can be considered in terms of how it affects others
    Fi: Everything can be in harmony or congruence

    This is all I am suggesting by calling them "perspectives". Notice, those aren't "activities" or "behaviors", though they will influence those things.

    What are you talking about, Eric? I own every book ever written on the processes and I approve of the way the authors have described them. I always have. It is you and Sim who thought you'd be cute and say, "Oh, no! Let's rename them all something else." Frankly, you and Sim remind me of Victor.

    You and Sim:

    Perspective!
    Perspective!

    Victor:

    MBTI trance!
    MBTI trance!

    I've known Beebe's work for years.
    Just know some of us are not Beebe fans, and let's move on.
    I do not enjoy going over the same material, ad nauseam.
    You approve of every author? That's funny; you sure don't approve of Lenore and Beebe.

    You still need to show how calling the functions perspectives is the same thing as calling the whole MBTI a trance! "Trance" is meant as a pejorative to knock the whole thing. Your criticizing of certain people's expressions of the theory is closer to what Victor does than anything else.

    So rather than entertain the possibility Beebe's work is crap, or the possibility that an INTP can use Fi without being "demonic," your only solution was to play a name-changing game. All I can tell you is this:

    Read my sig line.
    Again, you do not know what you are talking about. The problem is not Beebe's work; it's certain interpretations of it or ways of expressing it that need to be ironed out. He has acknowledged that the functions can step outside their archetypal carriers and operate independently of them, so I did not need to reject Beebe to realize that an INTP can engage the products of Fi (a better way of putting that).
    The name change was an alternative to the confusing "using skills/behavior/activities" lingo that begs the question of where it really fits in a given type in the first place. I wish you would stop making it more than that.

    Again, your slamming the guy for no reason at all is more like Victor. He only goes further and extends it to the whole theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Wasn't it Lenore who came up with the "perspectives" terminology?
    I don't remember her using the term directly, but the use of it seen here was greatly influenced by her. From what I understand, it was Sim who coined the term.

    Here's her own description of what she calls them:
    To put this somewhat differently, the functions represent four different ways that our unconscious emotional subsystems are brought into relationship with our higher mental operations, moving them into the stream of consciousness. As such, the functions aren't cognitive processes. Rather, they make our emotional energies available to the operations of the executive brain.
    http://www.personalitypathways.com/t....html#question
    [Note: while she is rejecting the term "cognitive processes"; I am not pushing that point!]
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    We're not arguingas to the names of the concept, we're arguing on words to describe them.
    If you're going to get your panties in a wad over this, hell, call them your little "perspectives."

    And I still do not knock the term "processes" like you claimed; though I do shun "activities the system engages in as it functions in day-to-day life...They are best described using verbs that indicate actions." That's my one disagreement with her.
    Then disagree with Linda. Just like I disagree with the fear mongering of Lenore. Lenore is afraid of her own shadow. Literally. But you are sounding a bit like a parrot when you keep squawking about "perspectives" thread after thread.

    But even she describes them in terms of "Philosoph[ies] of Life" in that book on the top of the page for each process, and those seem to be her best descriptions of them.
    We both have the book, Eric.
    You are taking her too literally. She first defines a process in that book which I already posted. The "philosophies," are merely an additional way of looking at the processes. What if in lieu of the word, "philosophies" she chose the word "instruments" and used a symphony orchestra analogy. Then what - would you run around the forum telling people to use the word, "instrument"? Let's hope not.

    The Philosophy of Life that engages...
    Se: There is always more to be experienced, and opportunities don't last.
    Si: There is always a comparison to be made, and if it is familiar, it is to be trusted
    Ne: There are always other perspectives and new meanings to discover
    Ni: There is always a future to realize and a significance to be revealed
    Te: Everything can be logical, structured and organized
    Ti: Everything can be explained and understood in terms of how it works
    Fe: Everything can be considered in terms of how it affects others
    Fi: Everything can be in harmony or congruence
    I agree with all of them, depending on the situation.
    I can't even imagine saying only ONE of those is my "Philosophy of Life." Like I said, I think you are taking her a bit too literally. She already defined a process and she even wrote:

    No single process operates in isolation.


    Which also implies no "Life Philosophy" operates in isolation, either.
    She's just giving the reader one more way to look at Ne, Se, or any of the other processes.

    You approve of every author? That's funny; you sure don't approve of Lenore and Beebe.
    This is what I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar
    I own every book ever written on the processes and I approve of the way the authors have described them.
    The operative word is processes, Eric. Processes. Don't play games. We both know Lenore's Beam-Me-Up-Scotty book is not about the processes, per se. It is about Personality TYPE, and all her incessant babbling about Captain Kirk. If someone wishes to buy a book to learn the processes, that sure isn't one to buy.

    You still need to show how calling the functions perspectives is the same thing as calling the whole MBTI a trance! "Trance" is meant as a pejorative to knock the whole thing.
    It's merely the redundancy of it all, Eric. You and I end up in many of the same threads, so I see how many times you tell people to use "perspectives." The same can be said of Victor who repeatedly uses the same words "trance" or God help us all, "Cognitive Dissonance." It's the repetitive nature that is annoying. Kind of like when you would start your posts with, "Lenore says."

    Your criticizing of certain people's expressions of the theory is closer to what Victor does than anything else.
    Then you don't know his style.

    The name change was an alternative to the confusing "using skills/behavior/activities" lingo that begs the question of where it really fits in a given type in the first place.
    It's confusing to you, perhaps. Or you just don't like it. You might also one day realize that not all people fit cleanly into a given type. Even the MBTI handbook remarks not everyone is a clear type.

    As to Beebe, my criticism of him was exactly his own. At least the guy was honest and admitted his "rigid hierarchies" even existed. That was always my problem with him. That means I am no more critical of Beebe than he was of himself.

  5. #65
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The operative word is processes, Eric. Processes. Don't play games. We both know Lenore's Beam-Me-Up-Scotty book is not about the processes, per se. It is about Personality TYPE, and all her incessant babbling about Captain Kirk. If someone wishes to buy a book to learn the processes, that sure isn't one to buy.
    Well, I happen to like her book a lot. It's not so bad on the processes - there is some great and insightful stuff in there - but yeah it's better on type I suppose. I liked Star Trek and don't like those examples though. lol

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  6. #66
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Skimmed the thread, realised everyone was using just one process to approach the issue, decided to call the majority of participants retarded.

    (a) it seems you're all attempting to define consciousness... that, after all, is what answers the question of how many processes are conscious at any given moment, and:

    (b) are you all not seeing the deep and abiding influence of your dominant functions on this debate? More particularly, how you're all making moves to make other people function as your dominant function functions...

    ^ there, for example, is me suggesting that everyone discover a global perspective. (Hello, Ni)

    And above we have Eric looking for an adequately descriptive word. (Good evening, Ti.)

    And Jag saying such things are foolishness because adequate description is less important than actual truth. (willkommen sie, Herr Te.)



    This is why they're called "dominant". They dominate your functioning. (Or, at least, they're evident as a dominant concern in your public presentations.)

    Do they dominate by being the one most often jumping to the front of the order in a serial swapping of function dominance or do they do it by so imprinting their imperatives and perspectives on the functioning of the "other" functions that those functions don't have a distinct identity....

    Well, I don't know, yes, it is an interesting question.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #67
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Skimmed the thread, realised everyone was using just one process to approach the issue, decided to call the majority of participants retarded.
    Despite the fact a mod once locked you out of a thread for calling people "retarded," here you are entering a conversation and the first thing you do is call the participants, "retarded." It's impossible to take you seriously. Grow up, Kalach. You've been behaving like this for far too long.

  8. #68
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Okay, Dad.


    Hug?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Despite the fact a mod once locked you out of a thread for calling people "retarded," here you are entering a conversation and the first thing you do is call the participants, "retarded."
    *The majority of participants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It's impossible to take you seriously.
    I take him seriously. To an extent. With qualifications... I'm not sure how seriously he takes himself, though...

    The pink elephant in any thread Kalach walks into is that he always likes to tell people how dominant the dominant function is, and how they don't realize it, but, what I always wonder is whether he realizes that, relative to others, his dominant is obviously extremely dominant; hence, why he feels the need to constantly remind others how dominant the dominant is... and does he realize this???
    Nevertheless, I find his perspective useful in filling out my global perspective. (Kon'nichiwa, Misuta Ni.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Grow up, Kalach. You've been behaving like this for far too long.
    This is why I question whether Jag is an ENTJ or ENFJ.

    I consider him an ENxJ, which would imply two dominant functions, and add a new wrinkle to your obsession, Kalach...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Do they dominate by being the one most often jumping to the front of the order in a serial swapping of function dominance or do they do it by so imprinting their imperatives and perspectives on the functioning of the "other" functions that those functions don't have a distinct identity....
    That is an interesting question...

    Why could it not be both...? (Oh, bonjour a nouveau, monsieur Ni...)

  10. #70
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Okay, Dad.
    Hug?
    No hug, Gramps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This is why I question whether Jag is an ENTJ or ENFJ.
    I consider him an ENxJ, which would imply two dominant functions, and add a new wrinkle to your obsession, Kalach...
    If you would actually type someone based upon whether or not a person says, "Grow up," rather than factoring in age, I can't take you seriously, either. If you really want to be told to "Grow up," then maybe I should invite my ESTJ pal who is in his 50's, to join.

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