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  1. #1
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Is there REALLY that much of a difference between MBTI and Keirsey?

    In the back of his book it says that while in MBTI ENTJ and ESTJ are only slightly different, in Keirsey's theory they're very different, coming from different temperaments... and yet he uses a typing method similar to if not the same as MBTI i.e. in MBTI you could potentially have a balanced preference for S and N, due to the natuer of the questions. But in Keirsey, this is also exactly the same.

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    Don't you just hate these guys????


  3. #3
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    The difference is from perspectives. Cognitively, they are similar; being the same "type" according to Jung's original "eight psychological types" conception, and they differ on the auxiliary.

    That little difference, however, is enough to change the temperament needs. One is concrete, and paired with the function attitude indicator of J, also makes it cooperative. The other is abstract, which pairs with the Thinking to make it pragmatic.

    So it's not either/or (even though the theorists themselves might argue so); they're both looking at the same thing through different angles.
    Last edited by Eric B; 08-20-2010 at 08:59 PM.
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    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Don't you just hate these guys????

    I learn to just ignore them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The difference is from perspectives. Cognitively, they are similar; being the same "type" according to Jung's original "eight psychological types" conception, and they differ on the auxiliary.

    That little difference, however, is enough to change the temperament needs. One is concrete, and paired with the dunction attitude indicator of J, also makes it cooperative. The other is abstract, which pairs with the Thinking to make it pragmatic.

    So it's not either/or (even though the theorists themselves might argue so); they're both looking at the same thing through different angles.
    But there is no temperament in MBTI, whereas it is a crucial difference for Keirsey, whose entire theoretical originality rests on temperaments.

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Actually, there was temperament in MBTI. Myers suggested ST, SF, NT, NF. Which agrees with Keirsey for the N's.

    "Crucial difference" in one system can be ignored by another, but they can all be seen as crucial in their own right. It depends on what aspect of personality a theory is looking at.
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  6. #6
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Actually, there was temperament in MBTI. Myers suggested ST, SF, NT, NF. Which agrees with Keirsey for the N's.

    "Crucial difference" in one system can be ignored by another, but they can all be seen as crucial in their own right. It depends on what aspect of personality a theory is looking at.
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Socionics also has temperaments or "clubs". They're not as crucial though as Keirsey.

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yeah; in Socionics, S/N + T/F are the "clubs", and E/I + j/p are the "temperaments". The latter would match a "sociability temperaments" grouping in MBTI, except for the j/p switch for introverts.
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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    When we lay them out as Interaction Style and temperament, we see some that are alike in two of the three areas (cognitive, conative, affective)l and a few that only share cognitive dominance.

    Extraverted Sensing type:
    ESFP Get Things Going-Improviser;
    ESTP In Charge-Improviser
    (same conative temperament)

    Introverted Sensing type:
    ISTJ Chart the Course-Stabilizer
    ISFJ Behind the Scenes-Stabilizer
    (same conative temperament)

    Extraverted iNtutive type:
    ENFP Get Things Going-Catalyst
    ENTP Get Things Going-Theorist
    (same Interaction Style)

    Introverted iNtutive type:
    INTJ Chart the Course-Theorist
    INFJ Chart the Course-Catalyst
    (same Interaction Style)

    Extraverted Thinking type:
    ENTJ In Charge-Theorist
    ESTJ In Charge-Stabilizer
    (same Interaction Style)

    Introverted Thinking type:
    INTP Behind the Scenes-Theorist
    ISTP Chart the Course-Improviser
    (totally different)

    Extraverted Feeling type:
    ESFJ Get Things Going-Stabilizer
    ENFJ In Charge-Catalyst
    (totally different)

    Introverted Feeling type:
    INFP Behind the Scenes-Catalyst
    ISFP Behind the Scenes-Improviser
    (same Interaction Style)

    Same temperament: S's
    same Interaction Style: Ne, Ni, Te, Fi
    no matches: Ti, Fe
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  9. #9
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    Personality theory (MBTI) is supposed to be about what people have in mind when they do things. Temperament (KTS) is supposed to be about what people DO and how often. So yes there is an important difference. In general I think Kiersey's descriptions are superior.

    HOWEVER, the more I read Keirsey's descriptions of INTPs and ENFJs, the more I think he is personally biased about those two types. Apparently, keirsey (an INTP) has some sweet ass honey ENFJ wife that's been his lifeline/support for a long time and helped make him the man he is, which probably has influenced his perception of that type. "pedagogue/teacher" type for ENFJ? Hah, no i don't think so, that description is absurd. Maybe to him an ENFJ was his teacher, but that hardly is fitting of the general type. I myself haven't learned jack nor shit of any worth from ENFJs and I know most of you haven't either, except for maybe how to use Fe better to manipulate and counter-manipulate others. "the empath" is the proper term for ENFJ if you ask me, not pedagogue. Oprah doesn't teach others jack shit either, she is a sharer and exposer of feelings/experiences and it stops at that.

    He also greatly embellishes the INTP profile, and this is coming from a tested INTP here. "The architect" and his description of INTPs make them seem like godlike creators/designers standing above the other types, even the other NTs. It's just not accurate if you ask me. ENTPs, ENTJs and INTJs all make better engineers and designers than INTPs if you ask me. INTPS are "abstraction whores", more so than ENTPs. "designer of systems"? Bullshit i say, all NTs excel at that. the fact he throws it into the INTPs lap alone is sheer bias.


    EDIT: wow this really turned into a KTS rant didn't it? hmmm

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Personality theory (MBTI) is supposed to be about what people have in mind when they do things. Temperament (KTS) is supposed to be about what people DO and how often. So yes there is an important difference. In general I think Kiersey's descriptions are superior.

    HOWEVER, the more I read Keirsey's descriptions of INTPs and ENFJs, the more I think he is personally biased about those two types. Apparently, keirsey (an INTP) has some sweet ass honey ENFJ wife that's been his lifeline/support for a long time and helped make him the man he is, which probably has influenced his perception of that type. "pedagogue/teacher" type for ENFJ? Hah, no i don't think so, that description is absurd. Maybe to him an ENFJ was his teacher, but that hardly is fitting of the general type. I myself haven't learned jack nor shit of any worth from ENFJs and I know most of you haven't either, except for maybe how to use Fe better to manipulate and counter-manipulate others. "the empath" is the proper term for ENFJ if you ask me, not pedagogue. Oprah doesn't teach others jack shit either, she is a sharer and exposer of feelings/experiences and it stops at that.

    He also greatly embellishes the INTP profile, and this is coming from a tested INTP here. "The architect" and his description of INTPs make them seem like godlike creators/designers standing above the other types, even the other NTs. It's just not accurate if you ask me. ENTPs, ENTJs and INTJs all make better engineers and designers than INTPs if you ask me. INTPS are "abstraction whores", more so than ENTPs. "designer of systems"? Bullshit i say, all NTs excel at that. the fact he throws it into the INTPs lap alone is sheer bias.


    EDIT: wow this really turned into a KTS rant didn't it? hmmm
    0/10

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