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  1. #121
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Bullshit.

    Read my post again.

    Not feeling the need to get collectively emoshy-woshy with co-workers, but having to deal with the consequences of their wanting you to be that way, is not akin to what you've described. Simple as that.
    Honestly, it's kind of funny how everything you say only more and more supports what I first said about you and the blind spot in your perspective.

    Ptah over on INTPc is open in his disregard for Fe... but at least he seems to be fully aware of what the weaknesses are in his perspective and simply has made a choice to embrace it and openly violate social norms, taking all the negatives that come along with it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, it's kind of funny how everything you say only more and more supports what I first said...
    What's funnier is that you (apparently) thought I didn't realize this.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ptah over on INTPc is open in his disregard for Fe... but at least he seems to be fully aware of what the weaknesses are in his perspective and simply has made a choice to embrace it and openly violate social norms, taking all the negatives that come along with it.
    I don't really see how I'm not doing (and have been since I got here) the exact same thing?


  3. #123
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think this is very true.

    What would Te ganging up look like though?
    What immediately comes to mind is a meeting with a bunch of TJs and an NF

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    Aside from that, my issues with Fe are with both my own and my girlfriend's mother (both ESFJs), and how they both care so much about the opinions of other people, in an extremely vapid and shallow way. They're both lovely people on the whole, but this trait absolutely disgusts me.
    It's funny. I used to feel quite strongly about this same issue but don't think about it much anymore. Not sure why exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    - see, I can't stand Fe in the workplace. In fact, I probably can't stand it there more than anywhere else, cuz I can use my Te to masquerade as Fe, but I don't genuinely feel the need or desire to "collectivize" with other Fe-users; they, however, do genuinely feel the need to do so with each other. They then form "clicks", as Orobas regularly points out, and, as Highlander has been suggesting, and they develop a sort of "gang" mentality by which they collectively want to hammer down any nail that dares stick its head out (i.e., does not abide by their collective "morality").

    - as for protection: I'm way past the days of needing protection from other individuals. Maybe when I was younger, before I'd developed my sense of self, this may have been the case. Not anymore. If someone thinks they can rock my boat, I welcome them to try. I am far more critical of myself than anyone else could possibly be of me, and when you've been forged from that kind of fire, someone else's little bottle rocket really ain't gunna do shit.

    Unfortunately, what I don't exactly have from protection from is the "gang" mentality of Fe-users, especially in a corporate hierarchy. I can navigate reasonably well, try not to cross wires with them, but there's an inevitable external pressure I feel from these folks, that I don't feel from Fi-users. Fi-users will go on their way, and so long as you don't actively go out of your way and bother them, they won't bother you. Fe-users, though, if you don't engage them the way they want to be engaged by others, then you do bother them. They seem to feel shunned, or blunted, because they want to engage with others in a way that -- if I'm not on certain mind-altering substances -- I don't really feel the need/desire to do. Then, as someone who doesn't engage them in this way, you become someone who's "not part of the group". Then you've got to deal with all kinds of stupid political bullshit because of it. All because you don't feel the need/desire to get all collective emoshy-woshy with your co-workers. It's fucking .
    The points you're making really resonate with me. On the Fe users specifically - I have definitely experienced this, have been enormously frustrated at times by it and experienced the political fall-out. However, I think a lot of this also relates to turf issues, people wanting control, resistance to change, and the like - that is having nothing to do with Fe. A good deal of experience and personal pain has forced me to develop a style which is far more collaborative, diplomatic, inclusive, and less directive than would be natural for me. Even still, I sometimes forget to communicate or engage others. It's a fundamental weakness that I seem to have. I try and work with people who have stronger gifts in this regard which helps some.

    I wonder if some of the issues you describe related to work might have a little more to do with you being an INTJ than others being Fe. At least, that is what I've attributed some of my challenges to - that is, personal blind spots or weaknesses.

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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I wonder if some of the issues you describe related to work might have a little more to do with you being an INTJ than others being Fe. At least, that is what I've attributed some of my challenges to - that is, personal blind spots or weaknesses.
    I think is has to do with both.

    I certainly don't think it has nothing to do with me.

    If I were an Fe-user, I'd be doing the same kinds of things they do.

    The fact of the matter, though, is that's not me, nor would I want it to be.

    On this topic, I actually tend to disagree with Orobas about her "blindness" thesis.

    I'm not saying I'm as good as your typical Fe-dom or aux, but I'm actually pretty good at noticing social cues and what not.

    But there is a big difference between noticing them, wanting to deal with them, and knowing what to do with them when you notice them but don't really want to deal with them.

    I tend to find I get caught in that last one: it's like, "OK, so I see what's going on here, but this isn't really a game I want to play. These people seem to be playing this game all the time, as it's their game. It is not mine. Now what am I gunna do?"

    I mean, I deal with it. The issue presents itself before me; what else can I do but deal with it?

    If the people seem psychologically healthy, I can actually get along with them pretty well.

    But the unhealthier ones: they gross me the fuck out. I deal with them too, but...

  5. #125
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    I also think the problem might be worse amongst tert-Fe users...

    The dom's and aux's seem more consumed by Fe, such that they really make an effort to be cool with you...

    The tert's, however, seem to be cut of a bit different cloth...

    In the end, thought it's all about psychological health, but those are the tendencies I believe I've seen...

  6. #126
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think this is very true.

    What would Te ganging up look like though?
    "What's up, is there something going on with you? You don't seem to have it together for what we're doing here, are you okay?"

    Forcing the assertion that the problem rests inside the person, not outside in the agreed upon project order.

    (It wouldn't look like Jag at all.)

    Unfortunately, what I don't exactly have from protection from is the "gang" mentality of Fe-users, especially in a corporate hierarchy. I can navigate reasonably well, try not to cross wires with them, but there's an inevitable external pressure I feel from these folks, that I don't feel from Fi-users. Fi-users will go on their way, and so long as you don't actively go out of your way and bother them, they won't bother you. Fe-users, though, if you don't engage them the way they want to be engaged by others, then you do bother them. They seem to feel shunned, or blunted, because they want to engage with others in a way that -- if I'm not on certain mind-altering substances -- I don't really feel the need/desire to do. Then, as someone who doesn't engage them in this way, you become someone who's "not part of the group". Then you've got to deal with all kinds of stupid political bullshit because of it. All because you don't feel the need/desire to get all collective emoshy-woshy with your co-workers. It's fucking .
    The-ho-retically... it's an e function, right. It's not a perception function, but it is e, and thus it does orient on the outer world. If, in that outer world, there were some stubborn asshole who didn't bend with the wind, then that would be part of the outer world. Now, granted, this would be upsetting, moreso for that stubborn asshole not just being unreadable but apparently sending out death ray signals as well, so they'd try to alter the situation. They'd try to get that stubborn asshole to bend. Is it, however, guaranteed that they never expand the world inside themselves enough to get a picture of that stubborn asshole as not really the source of anxiety and distress he seems?

    One would be hard pressed to generate that expansion of perception. Whoever's doing the perceiving is actually set up to perceive things that accord with their other perspectives, and they totally won't get it if you start prompting their perception. But, perception is perception and formally non-judgmental, so if the gang is still bangin to this day, then it is possible that there're some other bunch of imperatives shaping things too, like institutional environment, political or economic pressures that support gangs, etc.

    But there's some mutual irony going on: to get the gangs to perceive more than they want to, you have to agree with yourself to be the stubborn asshole, but you have to be stubborn because they're being stubborn about not updating their perceptions and since you are being stubborn, what are their perceptions going to be? Etc and so on.

    Something like that.
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  7. #127
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    I found this thread by typing Michael Jordan into the search bar and dang I expected to see some BASKETBALL!... I guess I was wrong

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