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  1. #101
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Then go buy one of many books available to teach yourself the functions.
    Fe doesn't sprout little legs, and arms, and "gang up on people."
    I thought more about how Jag's response really does not answer my question at all and realize that perhaps I'm not explaining myself well enough.

    Pick your favorite author that describes the functions: Hartzler, Haas/Hunziker, Jung, Thompson, Bashtavenko, etc. The function descriptions that you read describe the attributes of a particular person who possesses or uses a function. What they don't do is describe what happens when multiple people who have said function interact with each other or how the results of those functions are manifested in an environment or culture.

    So for example, if Fe seeks harmony and also judges or Te seeks results or adherence with external standards, then people who do not fit the particular collective Fe or Te mold become excluded or even "ganged up on".

    "The Character of Organizations" by Bridges gets into this a bit in that it describes how organizations behave like individuals. It groups organizations into the 16 types and describes the characteristics of those organizations. The culture of a company might have one overall type but there might be individual departments or subcultures that have different types. So, this gets into it a little bit but the descriptions are broad, focused on a type vs. a function, and it does not get into how things occur dynamically.

    So, I'm asking about potential characteristics of a group of individuals that are manifesting Fe, potential outcomes and how that affects others.

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  2. #102
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Fake social cohesion is over-rated...
    That's your problem right there -- mislabelling a lot of things as fake when it's really just a shortness of perception on your own part.

    You're a thoughtful guy: Do some positive brainstorming aside from any crappy experiences you might have had in your life with Fe-primary people and see what you can come up with as potential benefits that aren't colored by your personal life experience.

    Then look around and see if you can find those things in play.

    Maybe it's different the further you get out of a high school / college environment or having to live under your family's rules, and instead start seeing the benefits of a functional workplace and/or society.

    Heck, maybe you can see some of them around you on this forum. I think you'd be getting dumped on a lot more if social niceties were dropped. You might feel such rules and formalities inhibit you, but they also protect you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #103
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's your problem right there -- mislabelling a lot of things as fake when it's really just a shortness of perception on your own part.

    You're a thoughtful guy: Do some positive brainstorming aside from any crappy experiences you might have had in your life with Fe-primary people and see what you can come up with as potential benefits that aren't colored by your personal life experience.

    Then look around and see if you can find those things in play.

    Maybe it's different the further you get out of a high school / college environment or having to live under your family's rules, and instead start seeing the benefits of a functional workplace and/or society.

    Heck, maybe you can see some of them around you on this forum. I think you'd be getting dumped on a lot more if social niceties were dropped. You might feel such rules and formalities inhibit you, but they also protect you.
    Yeah, if I went by half of the stuff people seem to think Fe is, I could quite easily toss in my INFJ card as I relate to very little to none of it.

    Not to mention, many of these so-called social niceties/'cohesion' can be better ascribed to Si/SJ imo, or even more generational things (hence, Si). My ISTJ mother is far more 'proper' and into sending such things as thank-you notes, placing great importance on manners and other 'correct' ways of doing things (things such as how to properly eat at the dinner table), and the like.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #104
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah, if I went by half of the stuff people seem to think Fe is, I could quite easily toss in my INFJ card as I relate to very little to none of it.

    Not to mention, many of these so-called social niceties/'cohesion' can be better ascribed to Si/SJ imo, or even more generational things (hence, Si). My ISTJ mother is far more 'proper' and into sending such things as thank-you notes, placing great importance on manners and other 'correct' ways of doing things (things such as how to properly eat at the dinner table), and the like.
    I agree, Cascade. I have found the ISJ's (if they haven't been raised in environments that made "change" a natural part of life) far more entrenched in the "proper way to do things," where if you examine Fe-based people, well, it's an extroverted function, and if you examine how Fe-people work, it's a lot more flexible than being given credit for.

    When Si is in charge, the inner vision of the world is set, and Fe isn't as free to adjust to new situations (IMO) -- it is in thrall to Si. Whatever Si says is true, that is what goes. Fe has no freedom to accomodate beyond the limits of Si.

    When Fe is in charge, it's guided by Pi but still is its own master, and so it accommodates external events more. Lenore Thomson describes this in detail, more than adequately.

    It's also typical what I've experienced. I've had more issues when "change" is involved with Si primaries than with Fe primaries; the latter can be far more accommodating. Relational principles are being applied to situations as they unfold, rather than being used to express a single solitary vision of reality in how someone engages the world.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #105
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Pick your favorite author that describes the functions: Hartzler, Haas/Hunziker, Jung, Thompson, Bashtavenko, etc.
    You put Solitary Walker, who decided to self-publish his ego via vanity press, in the same sentence with Jung and Leona Haas?
    This conversation is over, before it even gets started.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So for example, if Fe seeks harmony and also judges or Te seeks results or adherence with external standards, then people who do not fit the particular collective Fe or Te mold become excluded or even "ganged up on".
    I think this is very true.

    What would Te ganging up look like though?

    The people have different Fi values, and so all I can really imagine is Te-users (and only doms or auxs, really) calling certain people slackers, wastes of space, or something of the like (which, btw, I fully support, as these slackers, wastes of space, etc. will, if they actually vote, more likely than not vote for candidates who support policies to benefit their lazy, slacker asses by getting other hard-working people to pay for their goods and services). Aside from that, though, I'm not sure there is really enough collectivism amongst Te-users, to really instigate a "ganging up on" somebody.

    Fe-users, on the other hand, do tend to seem more united than Te-users, for some reason...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's your problem right there -- mislabelling a lot of things as fake when it's really just a shortness of perception on your own part.

    ...

    Maybe it's different the further you get out of a high school / college environment or having to live under your family's rules, and instead start seeing the benefits of a functional workplace and/or society.

    ...

    Heck, maybe you can see some of them around you on this forum. I think you'd be getting dumped on a lot more if social niceties were dropped. You might feel such rules and formalities inhibit you, but they also protect you.
    Well, I was kinda tongue-in-cheekly being the knee-jerk-reaction, only-see-the-negative-side-of-the-Fe-coin guy when I wrote that, but...

    To address the points you did bring up:

    - see, I can't stand Fe in the workplace. In fact, I probably can't stand it there more than anywhere else, cuz I can use my Te to masquerade as Fe, but I don't genuinely feel the need or desire to "collectivize" with other Fe-users; they, however, do genuinely feel the need to do so with each other. They then form "clicks", as Orobas regularly points out, and, as Highlander has been suggesting, and they develop a sort of "gang" mentality by which they collectively want to hammer down any nail that dares stick its head out (i.e., does not abide by their collective "morality").

    Aside from that, my issues with Fe are with both my own and my girlfriend's mother (both ESFJs), and how they both care so much about the opinions of other people, in an extremely vapid and shallow way. They're both lovely people on the whole, but this trait absolutely disgusts me.

    I remember my mom once cajoling me in junior high or high school to do or buy something (I really don't remember what it was), me putting up resistance, and her stating, "but Z (yes, she calls me by my abbreviated username, as well), it's a trendy thing to do/buy"... I was just like ... that was like the exact opposite of how to get me to do/buy something, but for my mom, I could tell that it somehow made sense.

    My father is an ISTJ, and he's like the exact opposite: doesn't give a damn about anybody else's opinions or what "society" wants him to do, etc.

    I just always sided with my father on this one, which, when you really look at it, is like siding with Fi over Fe.

    Maybe this is why I feel as strongly about it as I do.

    My poor mother, too... her other child was an IxTJ daughter... she musta been, "so ronery... so ronery..."

    - as for protection: I'm way past the days of needing protection from other individuals. Maybe when I was younger, before I'd developed my sense of self, this may have been the case. Not anymore. If someone thinks they can rock my boat, I welcome them to try. I am far more critical of myself than anyone else could possibly be of me, and when you've been forged from that kind of fire, someone else's little bottle rocket really ain't gunna do shit.

    Unfortunately, what I don't exactly have from protection from is the "gang" mentality of Fe-users, especially in a corporate hierarchy. I can navigate reasonably well, try not to cross wires with them, but there's an inevitable external pressure I feel from these folks, that I don't feel from Fi-users. Fi-users will go on their way, and so long as you don't actively go out of your way and bother them, they won't bother you. Fe-users, though, if you don't engage them the way they want to be engaged by others, then you do bother them. They seem to feel shunned, or blunted, because they want to engage with others in a way that -- if I'm not on certain mind-altering substances -- I don't really feel the need/desire to do. Then, as someone who doesn't engage them in this way, you become someone who's "not part of the group". Then you've got to deal with all kinds of stupid political bullshit because of it. All because you don't feel the need/desire to get all collective emoshy-woshy with your co-workers. It's fucking .

    - And I understand that we can use all 8 functions, and yada yada yada, yeah, I get that crap. But guess what: I don't really feel the need/desire to get all collective emoshy-woshy with people, so to make myself feel that way, is basically putting on a fake mask and pretending that I do. Oh, and I do it. You got to. It's just fucking .

    So you Fe, for forcing me to choose between: 1) being authentic and dealing with more office politics; or 2) being inauthentic and dealing with less office politics. You're really doing me a big favor there!

  7. #107
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    - And I understand that we can use all 8 functions, and yada yada yada, yeah, I get that crap. But guess what: I don't really feel the need/desire to get all collective emoshy-woshy with people, so to make myself feel that way, is basically putting on a fake mask and pretending that I do. Oh, and I do it.You got to You got to. It's just fucking .

    So Fe, for forcing me to choose between: 1) being authentic and dealing with more office politics; or 2) being inauthentic and dealing with less office politics. You're really doing me a big favor there!
    It's not that you hate Fe for being fake. You hate the fakeness within yourself. Read your own post and step up to the plate.
    No one is putting a gun to your head to do anything against your will.


    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I can't take control of my life, let's blame the functions!
    Cry me a river.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It's not that you hate Fe for being fake. You hate the fakeness within yourself. Read your own post and step up to the plate.
    No one is putting a gun to your head to do anything against your will.

    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I can't take control of my life, let's blame the functions!
    Cry me a river.
    Bullshit.

    Read my post again.

    Not feeling the need to get collectively emoshy-woshy with co-workers, but having to deal with the consequences of their wanting you to be that way, is not akin to what you've described. Simple as that.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Bullshit.
    My opinion stands.
    Man up.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    My opinion stands.
    Man up.
    As does mine.

    I already do.

    Facts are facts, however.

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