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  1. #71
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    I don't have much experience in MBTI. However, from what I can tell about the nature of the theory there is really no way it can be refuted, persay. It could be said that the information it provides isn't useful, but that isn't really an argument as much as someone realizing the error of their own assumptions.

    The dichotomies are not static but instead span the population relatively. Therefore, every person within that population will fall somewhere between "I/E", "N/S", etc. and will undoubtedly fall into 1 of 16 containers. If you are saying that the container you fall into changes, that only means you have changed your location within the system. The system itself doesn't change, so if you were to spend equal time in every container that would only mean that your overall preference is 50/50 on all 4 dichotomies. It is far more likely that you will prefer some more than others, hence, your preference.

    If you say that this variance makes the system useless, then perhaps it is your assumptions about its purpose than need adjustment. What it is most effective for is identifying behavior categories so that people can be broken up into personality groups as a means to map similarities. Then, the patterns that emerge can be used to point people in the right direction for things like their career.

    I doubt it was ever meant to tell you who you are or replace natural self-discovery even if that is how people want to use it. MBTI is merely a tool, an overlay on the population in order to illustrate patterns that can provide information that is useful for certain ends. Just because people misuse these patterns and assign them inane personal values does not invalidate the system.



    Get it? You can't fall outside of the system and you can't say the lines aren't there even if they seem arbitrary for your purposes.
    MBTI was created to serve the industrial system, in fact to serve the military/industrial system.

    So MBTI was invented simply to serve the efficiency of the industrial system. It is an efficient way of allocating human resources.

    However MBTI presumes we humans are means not ends. Whereas I am saying this is an ugly way to see us. And I am saying the beautiful way is to see us is as ends not means.

    And indeed our highest and most beautiful moral imperative is to see us as ends not means.

  2. #72
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    oh boy here comes The Prophet to set things right again
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #73
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And indeed our highest and most beautiful moral imperative is to see us as ends not means.
    ladies and gentlemen, Kant's Categorical Imperative.

    incidentally, Victor, i agree with you on this statement, but not about the rest of the stuff about the MBTI. anyway do you have a past thread where you talk about your take on the history of the MBTI that you could PM me the link to, or wanna create a new one? i don't want to keep jacking fill's thread but i can't say i'm not curious.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ladies and gentlemen, Kant's Categorical Imperative.

    incidentally, Victor, i agree with you on this statement, but not about the rest of the stuff about the MBTI. anyway do you have a past thread where you talk about your take on the history of the MBTI that you could PM me the link to, or wanna create a new one? i don't want to keep jacking fill's thread but i can't say i'm not curious.
    The history of MBTI is shocking and will offend your moral sensibilities, just as it would offend the moral sensibilities of Emmanuel Kant.

  5. #75
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The history of MBTI is shocking and will offend your moral sensibilities, just as it would offend the moral sensibilities of Emmanuel Kant.
    What about pre-MBTI Jungian function theory? Would that offend our moral sensibilities too?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #76
    Senior Member Blown Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    MBTI was created to serve the industrial system, in fact to serve the military/industrial system.

    So MBTI was invented simply to serve the efficiency of the industrial system. It is an efficient way of allocating human resources.
    That's cool, but I don't see how that's relevant to what it is good for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    However MBTI presumes we humans are means not ends. Whereas I am saying this is an ugly way to see us. And I am saying the beautiful way is to see us is as ends not means.

    And indeed our highest and most beautiful moral imperative is to see us as ends not means.
    MBTI doesn't "presume" anything. It is a system of categorization. If anything, MBTI is a means to a potentially useful human end. I can see how it might offend a human sense of self to be stamped with some letters, but that is only the feeling that someone, somewhere is dehumanizing you much like becoming a statistic. However, MBTI is just a tool that you may or may not choose to utilize. It is a human creation so even though MBTI itself is not human (lol) it is not inhuman by nature. Consequently, like any human tool, it's a matter of how or if you use it.

  7. #77
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Full of it? Of awesome? Yes, yes it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The institution that uses MBTI is the USA military/industrial complex.

    Yes, MBTI was specifically written for the USA military/industrial complex to prosecute a war.

    And the USA military/industrial complex has been using MBTI for seventy years for the same purpose. But in all that time they have not done even one random double blind experiment to determine its legitimacy as a personality test. So plainly they use it for other purposes, namely to control and manipulate recruits and employees.
    To the bolded: sources?

    Yes, this may be true, and if it is I will add it to my mental library of facts.

    But other than that, there is not much else I can do with this.

    The misuses of a system, the faults of those who created it, or any other things that are not about the system itself, say nothing about the worth or validity of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If any Psychology Department took MBTI seriously they would do a random double blind test. But in seventy years not one Psychology Department has done a random double blind test.
    Fine, sometime I will get the resources together and run a random double blind test of MBTI. It will be interesting to see how well it holds up. But due to the nature of personality tests, such an experiment is kind of irrelevant.


    Back to the OP -- typology in general can be very tricky for some people. For almost everyone, a slight preference is there, but for some it is so close as to not really be of much use. You may alternate your current type all the time, but what you are looking for is the pattern. We are all the types, but on the whole are you one of the types slightly more than the other 15?

  8. #78
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    lol @ people trying to use reason with victor
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    Fine, sometime I will get the resources together and run a random double blind test of MBTI. It will be interesting to see how well it holds up. But due to the nature of personality tests, such an experiment is kind of irrelevant.
    The fact is that the validity and reliability of all personality tests are determined by many and repeated random double blind experiments, but not MBTI.

  10. #80
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post


    MBTI doesn't "presume" anything. It is a system of categorization. If anything, MBTI is a means to a potentially useful human end. I can see how it might offend a human sense of self to be stamped with some letters, but that is only the feeling that someone, somewhere is dehumanizing you much like becoming a statistic. However, MBTI is just a tool that you may or may not choose to utilize. It is a human creation so even though MBTI itself is not human (lol) it is not inhuman by nature. Consequently, like any human tool, it's a matter of how or if you use it.
    I have no problem being stamped with letters as long as the letters accurately define my tendencies. I'm not as concerned with the moral imperative. I'm more concerned and convinced with predictability, and I believe humans are predictable. Your own emotional reaction to yourself or others may cloud your ability to accept the predictability, but it's still there.


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