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  1. #1
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Default Explaining Ti to Fi types

    I've recently come to a bit better understanding of the relationship between Ti and Fi, and I think I may be able to use it to help Ti make a little more sense to Fi-ers...so here we go:

    As we already know, FeTi (used by xxTP and xxFJ) and TeFi (used by xxFP and xxTJ) represent two opposing (but equally valid!) ways of conceptualizing the nature of logic and ethics:

    FeTi prompts us to deal with ethics and morality collectively, according to a more generalized standard that we can all agree to be bound by, while dealing with logic and impersonal ideas in a more individualized and subjective way, seeking only to find what makes sense logically to the individual.

    TeFi prompts us to deal with logic and impersonal ideas collectively, according to a more generalized objective standard which we can all agree to use to quantify and measure impersonal ideas by the same method, while dealing with ethics according to an internalized and subjective standard, seeking only to find what feels right to the individual.



    I've found that many disagreements I've had with TeFi types tend to come down to this:

    1) I state an idea, theory or proposed framework for describing the logical relationships that make up a system, simply because it makes sense to me subjectively,
    2) The TeFi type insists that I provide objective evidence and empirical backing for this idea before it can be taken seriously,
    3) I get pissed because my ideas are being attacked.

    I know that I am especially bad about #3, but it's only just recently occurred to me why: Ti types are attached to their logical frameworks in exactly the same way Fi types are attached to their personal values: When you attack them, you attack the user's very sense of identity.

    What both sides need to recognize is that FeTi-ers constantly judge Fi ideas in Fe terms, and TeFi-ers constantly judge Ti ideas in Te terms, so each is fundamentally missing the point of the other's perspective.

    This is the exchange I see again and again regarding F ideas:

    1) An Fi type states his/her personal feelings regarding some sort of moral or ethical ideal because it makes sense to him/her subjectively,
    2) An Fe type insists that this idea cannot be taken seriously until shown to be accurate according to popular opinion/objective consensus on ethics,
    3) The Fi type gets pissed because his/her values are being attacked.


    What we all need to recognize is that Ji (Fi and Ti, that is) is not looking for externalized or objective evidence, but seeks only to find a line of reasoning that makes sense internally for the individual in question.

    Reread the first bolded section about the competing value systems. This is really where the vast majority of these disagreements come from.

    If, right now, you're asking yourself: "But wait--how could it ever be reasonable to take collective logic/individualized ethics seriously? Logic is obviously something that should be understood personally, while ethics are obviously something that should be understood and agreed upon collectively!"

    or:

    "But wait--how could it ever be reasonable to take collective ethics/individualized logic seriously? Ethics are obviously something that should be understood personally, while logic is obviously something that should be understood and agreed upon collectively!"

    then you have just stumbled upon the fundamental difference between TeFi and FeTi.

    Now, the real challenge is to begin accepting that neither of these approaches is fundamentally more correct than the other.

    And that's incredibly hard to do, but it's the only place to start if we are ever to begin truly appreciating the value in each other's perspectives.


    So if you are an FeTi type, recognize that even though considering ethics through a collective/communal perspective seems obviously rational to you, you are attacking an Fi user's sense of identity when you insist that he provide objective evidence for his Feeling ideas. As an Fi user, his Feeling is focused purely on finding what feels subjectively right to him--appeasing external consensus or providing objective evidence for it is completely beside the point.

    Likewise, if you are a TeFi type, recognize that even though considering logic through a collective/communal perspective seems obviously rational to you, you are attacking a Ti user's sense of identity when you insist that he provide objective evidence for his Thinking ideas. As a Ti user, his Thinking is focused purely on finding what seems subjectively consistent to him--appeasing external consensus or providing objective evidence for it is completely beside the point.

    There are a lot of people on this forum, and indeed everywhere in life, who have not even begun to consider that their preferred judgment outlook (TeFi or FeTi) is anything other than 100% Objectively Correct, end of story. Most people have no idea that there might be any validity in the opposing perspective, because most people are (naturally) very threatened by any challenge to their concepts of logic and ethics.

    And this is okay! It's natural for the opposing perspective to turn our stomachs. It's impossible to avoid this gut reaction--but the central idea of typology is to allow us to recognize these biases in ourselves and begin to understand that what seems obviously rational to us is not any better (or worse) than what seems obviously rational to others.

    Unfortunately I find that some people use typology as further justification for their own deluded arrogance--rather than, "Okay, now I see that my values are ultimately relative, and that other people can look at the world differently and there's nothing wrong with that", it becomes: "Oh, now I see why everyone who doesn't think like me is a total moron. Good thing I now know that [insert my type here] is the best!"

    And I would really like it if we could start to undo that counterproductive mentality.

    If you find yourself thinking, "Well that's stupid, anyone who sees logic as individualized and ethics as collective [or the other way around] is simply an idiot who doesn't understand how the real world works", then perhaps it's time to reevaluate your understanding.

    Last edited by simulatedworld; 08-16-2010 at 06:44 PM.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?
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  2. #2
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    I get what you are saying...the whole I'm thinking about my discussions with an ISTP coworker who seems to beat to his own drum when it comes to matters of business that seem to be done one way, and one way only. It's not the case, and I think it's refreshing to work with him. I do know that his approach isn't the most popular, but he sleeps well at the end of the day.

    Nice write up.

  3. #3
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    1. can you tell the diff between you and your Ti logical framework? Doe sit seem to be "you" yet also be separate from you?

    2. Also...ENFPs commonly hardcode Te as an Fi value....aka "Robotic Fi" that many ENFPs here employ.

    Do ENTPs hardcode Fe as part of their Ti logical construct of how to work with people systems? Thus an Fe offense as mentioned above, triggers an Ti reaction of "illogical", even though it is a moral value, not a REAL logical value being crossed.

    3. Is there such a thing as defensive Ti?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lucas's Avatar
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    1. can you tell the diff between you and your Ti logical framework? Doe sit seem to be "you" yet also be separate from you?
    Yes. It is a part of me because I derive (albeit mostly unconsciously) it from the sum of my experiences. It changes over time, as I do, and as I experience more, but it never goes away.

    Do ENTPs hardcode Fe as part of their Ti logical construct of how to work with people systems? Thus an Fe offense as mentioned above, triggers an Ti reaction of "illogical", even though it is a moral value, not a REAL logical value being crossed.
    Kind of. An attack on the premise of my construct seems to be an attack on my experience as invalid, and my analysis as incompetent. I believe this could be considered a Fe offense. That said, I don't think I have ever perceived an attack on my premise as an attack on my logic, because I do recognize that that premise is mostly intuited.

    3. Is there such a thing as defensive Ti?
    I am not sure what would constitute defensive Ti. I think most of my post-premise deduction could be considered such, because it serves to provide logical justification for my premise, to defend it from outside attack, and explain how to apply it.

  5. #5
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I've found that many disagreements I've had with TeFi types tend to come down to this:

    1) I state an idea, theory or proposed framework for describing the logical relationships that make up a system, simply because it makes sense to me subjectively,
    2) The TeFi type insists that I provide objective evidence and empirical backing for this idea before it can be taken seriously,
    3) I get pissed because my ideas are being attacked.

    I know that I am especially bad about #3, but it's only just recently occurred to me why: Ti types are attached to their logical frameworks in exactly the same way Fi types are attached to their personal values: When you attack them, you attack the user's very sense of identity.

    What both sides need to recognize is that FeTi-ers constantly judge Fi ideas in Fe terms, and TeFi-ers constantly judge Ti ideas in Te terms, so each is fundamentally missing the point of the other's perspective.

    This is the exchange I see again and again regarding F ideas:

    1) An Fi type states his/her personal feelings regarding some sort of moral or ethical ideal because it makes sense to him/her subjectively,
    2) An Fe type insists that this idea cannot be taken seriously until shown to be accurate according to popular opinion/objective consensus on ethics,
    3) The Fi type gets pissed because his/her values are being attacked.
    Sim I see this happen more inadvertantly...outside of simply the scope of ideas and into the world of behavioral patterns.

    1) The Fi user just does a normal Fi behavior
    2) The Fe user becomes offended
    2a)an Fe dom or aux will often mention it or just shun the person or ignore the behavior
    2b) an ENTP...as I mentioned above...seems to become become morally offended Fe...then logically offended Ti??? Then they begin to poke with Ti to try and reconcile the lack of logic in the others behavior via sharp probing questions...but the questions are loaded with implied value judgments like "selfish"
    3) The Fi feels attacked due to the deep sharp probes and implied value judgments, misunderstands a potentially gentle social rebuke for an attack on thier core and you see the emergence of "defensive Fi"
    4) The Ti-Fi wars go on for 5000 posts.....

    Linguistics and how the convo is framed seems to play a massive, massive role in the Te/Fi Ti/Fe communication gap. Check out the INFJ common issues thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Now, the real challenge is to begin accepting that neither of these approaches is fundamentally more correct than the other.

    And that's incredibly hard to do, but it's the only place to start if we are ever to begin truly appreciating the value in each other's perspectives.
    praise jesus. Did it ever occur to you that it seems odd that evolution would ever mix the two up? What is the advantage of this mixing?
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  6. #6
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    1. can you tell the diff between you and your Ti logical framework? Doe sit seem to be "you" yet also be separate from you?
    It's a fundamental part of me. It's not some separate entity that I can use as a scapegoat for my behavior. Ti is a central part of my identity; there is no difference. Introverted functions are inherently personalized in this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    2. Also...ENFPs commonly hardcode Te as an Fi value....aka "Robotic Fi" that many ENFPs here employ.

    Do ENTPs hardcode Fe as part of their Ti logical construct of how to work with people systems? Thus an Fe offense as mentioned above, triggers an Ti reaction of "illogical", even though it is a moral value, not a REAL logical value being crossed.
    Probably so. Since we are more naturally attuned to working with logical/illogical in Ti terms, when something offends Fe we sometimes mistakenly assume that the problem is logical in nature, when it's actually personal. (Hence the unconscious negative effects of the tertiary and inferior functions!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    3. Is there such a thing as defensive Ti?
    Absolutely; Ti becomes offended when its ideas and theories are attacked in just the same way Fi becomes offended when its values and feelings are attacked, because for both these are a part of our identity.

    So when a Te user asks me to provide objective evidence for my Ti ideas, I get very irritated because he's completely missing the point.

    Think about how it makes you feel when an Fe user asks you to justify your feelings and values by showing that most people would agree. Fi doesn't care if most people would agree; that's not what it's trying to do. Fi just wants to know exactly what feels right to you; how other people would feel about it is entirely beside the point.

    Ti just wants to know exactly what seems logical to me; what other people think about it is, similarly, entirely beside the point.

    The conflict happens because Fe assumes that ethics only make sense when agreed upon by larger groups, so "Show externally objective evidence for the validity of your moral view" is the only way Fe knows how to respond to Fi.

    Similarly, Te assumes that logic only makes sense when agreed upon by larger groups, so "Show externally objective evidence for the validity of your theoretical idea" is the only way Te knows how to respond to Ti.

    In both cases, the E function grossly misunderstands the nature and approach of the I function.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Sim I see this happen more inadvertantly...outside of simply the scope of ideas and into the world of behavioral patterns.
    Yes that's exactly what happens. Ti does the same thing when Te says, "You really need to show externally objective evidence for your idea or it's totally invalid"--this comes off as an attack on the Ti user's core identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Linguistics and how the convo is framed seems to play a massive, massive role in the Te/Fi Ti/Fe communication gap. Check out the INFJ common issues thread...
    Also very true. Lately I am finding that if I describe things to Fi users in terms of how they make me feel instead of in terms of how collective social standards say we should feel, I get a much better response because it allows them to empathize instead of implying oppressive control over their feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    praise jesus. Did it ever occur to you that it seems odd that evolution would ever mix the two up? What is the advantage of this mixing?
    I have no idea.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    If your an INTP or ISFP, Fe and Te might not seem like it fits in with their ideas about ethics or logic respectively. I know that IxxPs have inferior extroverted judgement, does this attitude improve with age, like you grow into it.

    There are going to be some people who think that both logic and ethics can fit their internal or external judgement, maybe their needs to be a clearer definition of logic and ethics when it comes to judgement in typology. Can there be a rational, impersonal ethics in typology?
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  8. #8
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    If your an INTP or ISFP, Fe and Te might not seem like it fits in with their ideas about ethics or logic respectively. I know that IxxPs have inferior extroverted judgement, does this attitude improve with age, like you grow into it.
    I think you do... but only if you allow it.

    We all get opportunities each day to do things in different ways, it's just that we don't often sense a pay off... partly because the perspective we're trying to use is so alien that we are quite clumsy with it.

    (In some ways, it reminds me of when my children would hate to practice the piano and then would complain I was so much better than them... but the deal is that they had been playing for six months and I had been playing for 30 years at that point. It is really hard to struggling through the period where you feel like you suck and nothing make sense, to hopefully reach a stage where you start to glimpse some of the reward. When my kids reached that point with their music, you could see the lights come on and now they were more and more motivated to use those skills over and over and continue to improve.)

    Absolutely; Ti becomes offended when its ideas and theories are attacked in just the same way Fi becomes offended when its values and feelings are attacked, because for both these are a part of our identity.
    I'm a little unsure on that one.

    Sometimes I do become offended if I feel like someone is being "stupid" because they can't see the "obvious" truths that I'm putting out there. (And yes, I'm using quotes in order to admit my own subjectivity here.)

    Other times, I'm just, like, "So what? You don't need to accept it if you don't want to, but you can't run from the truth. You'll find out you're wrong eventually."

    For some reason, Fi seems more personal to me in terms of how it is interwoven into identity. Shouldn't it be, if it is a direct reflection of the individuals values? I have values as well, and they don't necessarily align with what I can show to be truth logically, although I believe them to be true.
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  9. #9
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    There are going to be some people who think that both logic and ethics can fit their internal or external judgement, maybe their needs to be a clearer definition of logic and ethics when it comes to judgement in typology. Can there be a rational, impersonal ethics in typology?
    Rational, yes. Impersonal, no. Ethics are an inherently personal concept, based on feelings and relationships between people.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #10
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    1. can you tell the diff between you and your Ti logical framework? Doe sit seem to be "you" yet also be separate from you?
    Yup. You're having a conversation/debate with yourself.

    2. Also...ENFPs commonly hardcode Te as an Fi value....aka "Robotic Fi" that many ENFPs here employ.

    Do ENTPs hardcode Fe as part of their Ti logical construct of how to work with people systems? Thus an Fe offense as mentioned above, triggers an Ti reaction of "illogical", even though it is a moral value, not a REAL logical value being crossed.
    Yup. "This is right because it makes sense, and works the best for everyone." "Illogical" isn't the response that arises as much as it is "you're being irrational," i.e. you know what the rules are, and yet you don't seem to be breaking them for a good reason.

    3. Is there such a thing as defensive Ti?
    Yup. It's violent and destructive. It reduces the other person to an object, a challenge that must be defeated by any means possible.

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