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  1. #21
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I WOULD like to understand that some day. If possible.

    It seems like Fi values just come out of nowhere... unless they're derived from the "natural moral workings of the world" just like Ti is fueled by observation and thus a sense of the natural rules of the external physical world.

    Theoretically, they should be -- otherwise function theory is not balanced.
    ^I would say of course they're based on observation..

    Some people might get caught in a Fi-Ni or Fi-Si loop and seem less...relevant or easy to relate to.. (or something), but I think both Ne and Se helps round many Fi types out, if they really use them. And you can't use them without being in the world somewhat, and observing things. You can't be Se or even Ne without looking outside yourself. Some of us introverts might be too introverted for our own good at times, and just sit on a chair indoors with our ideals/values/Fi, but if they did that for too long, they might as well not even call themselves Ne or Se. Because they're observation is barely existent (or rather, applied indirectly), where Ne or Se is playing almost a third role, instead of secondary. At a certain point, people need data, and over time, that fleshes things out, and Fi isn't just coming out of nowhere, but out of experience, and observations on what works (as they see them).

  2. #22
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I WOULD like to understand that some day. If possible.

    It seems like Fi values just come out of nowhere... unless they're derived from the "natural moral workings of the world" just like Ti is fueled by observation and thus a sense of the natural rules of the external physical world.

    Theoretically, they should be -- otherwise function theory is not balanced.
    Just like it seems to TeFi types that Ti ideas come out of nowhere

    Fe needs "proof" of Fi and Te needs "proof" of Ti, and neither wants to give in.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Well, with Ti, it's like I have absorbed all the "rules" of the world around me, to create an internal model, and I understand it will work.. as long as the data I have processed is representative of the actual world. So I can look at a situation and almost immediately see the state of the entire system now, it's probable appearance a short ways into the future, and make reasonable predictions about it in the future... although as more and more time passes and more chaos has a chance to filter in (or more chance for any inherent errors in my view to magnify), I grow less and less certain of the specifics of my expected outcome.

    The Fi'ers I'm comfortable with seem to have the same sort of flexibility. They have a sense of the moral fabric of the world, but they are still responding to the world as it unfolds around them rather than having static rules in place that typically can be used on their own to make things work. (And that is what I feel like Je functions are more aware of -- a set store of procedural rules that have been agreed upon and can be followed to typically produce results in a given situation.) But Ji models are far more fluid. As Satine says, they are the universal rules focused through a unique individual. As such, they have to constantly be engaged with the real world... and this is why Ji ruled are not specific steps but typically principles that can be applied to any situation and underly the situation.

    So I guess then that Fi users who seem obstinate/indifferent to others/stuck in their own bent way of seeing the world are probably the analogy of the Ti user who sees the world in one rigid pattern and does not seem to adjust output to accommodate new information. There's lots of arguments like that over at INTPc -- you see a wide range of participants, some who are open and flexible to processing and accommodating new information on the fly (which I think is the healthy form) and some who seem to just have one single, limited, narrowly framed viewpoint that is set in stone and the principles of their model lack flexibility and thus are only applicable in certain situations rather than being universally true.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Just like it seems to TeFi types that Ti ideas come out of nowhere

    Fe needs "proof" of Fi and Te needs "proof" of Ti, and neither wants to give in.
    Thanks, but that's kind of an obvious side note and thus not really useful to me in understanding this.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #24
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    EDIT: I think I'd call these reactions of "annoyances" as cognitive disturbances. Different types of subconscious cognitions[cognitive functions] are more in tune with different methods of perception and judgement. The clash of preferences translates into "Fi hates Ti because of x". Our subconscious functions do function as part of our identities. But then this means cognitive-opposites will least likely get along with each other. It is also in conflict with the idea that we are disinclined towards our inferior function but maybe this reaction is more superficial than the former idea.


    EDIT: I guess this isn't about values..

    No, I cannot connect this theory fittingly enough with my observations.

    Where attacks comes from is always interpreted by Fe. There is always a connection to Fe.

    When you say "attack", it always implies a feeling function(Fx) wherein something is valued. Values, however, can be but only limitedly determined by the preference of the person: INTP's value TiNe. When Ti & Ne are "attacked" based on Fe's Judgements, TiNe(INTP) will subconsciously display irritated response from the Function of Fe alone. TiNe here are only considered information to be value-judged by Fe and not the entire "precious stone".

    The introversion of Ti may indicate "subjectiveness" but the whole process is for the purpose of objectivity. It dictates objective response and nothing else. It is Fe that elicits response.

    Fe is as personal(attacks, feelings etc.) as Fi albeit the 'flow' of judgement differs wherein one is extraverted(by the 'object' to the subject) and the other introverted(by the subject to the object). They are the displays of emotions, values and understanding of ethics.

    -------------

    Ti is not personally attached to the person but it is subjective. It can be a cause of conflict but indirectly and not the primary.

    Fi, on the other hand, behaves within that theory.

    -----

    This is inaccurate[to my observations] and is highly vulnerable to misunderstandings.

    FeTi prompts us to deal with ethics and morality collectively, according to a more generalized standard that we can all agree to be bound by, while dealing with logic and impersonal ideas in a more individualized and subjective way, seeking only to find what makes sense logically to the individual.

    TeFi prompts us to deal with logic and impersonal ideas collectively, according to a more generalized objective standard which we can all agree to use to quantify and measure impersonal ideas by the same method, while dealing with ethics according to an internalized and subjective standard, seeking only to find what feels right to the individual.
    Fe, Fi, Te and Ti are all interrelated.

    Fe needs "proof" of Fi and Te needs "proof" of Ti, and neither wants to give in.
    I disagree.
    Last edited by Craft; 08-13-2010 at 10:15 PM.

  5. #25
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    When I was chatting w Eric on the shadows thread about the rare occurance of Ti rage in INTPs....

    Now...this is a total stretch...but could part of the gut defensive reaction you guys feel in response to Fi (after the Fe offense transfers to Ti thoughts of stupid to then to a gut feeling of "passionate" wrong) ....actually be shadow Fi?

    I dunno...I just sorta stumbled over this so please forgive eric if I have misunderstood or removed the comment from the original context....I could have totally screwed this one up....
    No, that is likely right. That would be the shadow Fi reaction. They trigger each other in people.
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  6. #26
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    No, that is likely right. That would be the shadow Fi reaction. They trigger each other in people.
    It makes sense since the value seems to be introverted-oriented.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Now...this is a total stretch...but could part of the gut defensive reaction you guys feel in response to Fi (after the Fe offense transfers to Ti thoughts of stupid to then to a gut feeling of "passionate" wrong) ....actually be shadow Fi?

    I would say Fe to Fi. There is no necessary Ti here.

  7. #27
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Ti wasn't at all hard for me to grasp. It was Fe at first that was hard for me to grasp.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  8. #28
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Thanks, but that's kind of an obvious side note and thus not really useful to me in understanding this.
    Well, that wasn't just for you. More for anyone who happens to read thread.

    What would be more useful to you in understanding this, though?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #29
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Thats interesting Sim. This may be the root of many cross type arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    [B]FeTi prompts us to deal with ethics and morality collectively, according to a more generalized standard that we can all agree to be bound by, while dealing with logic and impersonal ideas in a more individualized and subjective way, seeking only to find what makes sense logically to the individual.

    I've found that many disagreements I've had with TeFi types tend to come down to this:

    1) I state an idea, theory or proposed framework for describing the logical relationships that make up a system, simply because it makes sense to me subjectively,
    2) The TeFi type insists that I provide objective evidence and empirical backing for this idea before it can be taken seriously,
    3) I get pissed because my ideas are being attacked.

    I know that I am especially bad about #3, but it's only just recently occurred to me why: Ti types are attached to their logical frameworks in exactly the same way Fi types are attached to their personal values: When you attack them, you attack the user's very sense of identity.
    Could you provide a specific example of one such exchange/argument (yes, I realize the irony)? I understand how it works the other way round (ie. me pissing people off ) but I can't fully get my head around how to apply this to everyday discussions. I mean, in what ways does the TeFi type answers undermine the FeTi type idea other than simply saying "where's your evidence?" - ie. what other kinds of TeFi responses tend to offend FeTi types? What does a common Ti idea sound like (as opposed to a Ne or Ni idea etc)?

    I admit, its hard for me to understand how someone could be passionate about a subjective logical theory as I am about my subjective values...
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  10. #30
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    can someone give me an example of well-developed Ti in action, describing their internal processing?

    so what am i left with? if i want to make my point, i have to argue the other person into a hole using Te until they will consider what i'm saying. it sucks for everyone, honestly, but sometimes i feel like my idea really is that important. fortunately, living in a house with three FeTi types and no other TeFi types, i've honed my Te quite well - even if it is still a brute force weapon, it's a nice shiny nightstick. no unwieldy, dirty club for me.
    Yeah, My Te doesnt feel like a hammer either. It can be blunt, when I am under massive stress but not brutal.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    ^I would say of course they're based on observation..

    Some people might get caught in a Fi-Ni or Fi-Si loop and seem less...relevant or easy to relate to.. (or something), but I think both Ne and Se helps round many Fi types out, if they really use them. And you can't use them without being in the world somewhat, and observing things. You can't be Se or even Ne without looking outside yourself. Some of us introverts might be too introverted for our own good at times, and just sit on a chair indoors with our ideals/values/Fi, but if they did that for too long, they might as well not even call themselves Ne or Se. Because they're observation is barely existent (or rather, applied indirectly), where Ne or Se is playing almost a third role, instead of secondary. At a certain point, people need data, and over time, that fleshes things out, and Fi isn't just coming out of nowhere, but out of experience, and observations on what works (as they see them).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, with Ti, it's like I have absorbed all the "rules" of the world around me, to create an internal model, and I understand it will work.. as long as the data I have processed is representative of the actual world. So I can look at a situation and almost immediately see the state of the entire system now, it's probable appearance a short ways into the future, and make reasonable predictions about it in the future... although as more and more time passes and more chaos has a chance to filter in (or more chance for any inherent errors in my view to magnify), I grow less and less certain of the specifics of my expected outcome.
    .
    I think Kdude is correct...although I'd love to hear more about his FiSe perspective. Many Fi users feel internal pain at seeing others in pain. We react to quell that pain...but we store that event as "wrong". If you start recording these events very young, you can determine what is wrong or right, based upon what causes pain or happiness in those around you. Many times these moral values will approach Fe social norms, but sometimes you stumble across odd ones due to our personalized experience.

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