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  1. #11
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's a fundamental part of me. It's not some separate entity that I can use as a scapegoat for my behavior. Ti is a central part of my identity; there is no difference. Introverted functions are inherently personalized in this way.
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yup. You're having a conversation/debate with yourself.
    Note you guys gave me different answers here...(well i think you did but could be incorrect as always... ) I dont think there is a right or wrong answer...but Silly and myself and Z and U were chattering regarding introverted functions on the "Sim Ni" thread...and it seemed like there were varying opinions on the topic...

    My thought is that perhaps when young our ego resides in the dom/aux functions, but as we age we can start to step away from clinging so tightly to that pair...and grow closer to being the true "self". So these little peeks...where we feel like we ARE Xi but we are also not quite Xi...they are like little windows where for brief moments we can see more than just our ego ... (warning...phoo phoo mystical feeler stuff....)

    Also-note the term "scapegoat"...Id immediately link that to how enfps use rationalization to self analyze and modify behavior via externalized Te learning and discussion....but often I think Fe mistakes this for making "excuses" Is really just a differnt learning style.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Probably so. Since we are more naturally attuned to working with logical/illogical in Ti terms, when something offends Fe we sometimes mistakenly assume that the problem is logical in nature, when it's actually personal. (Hence the unconscious negative effects of the tertiary and inferior functions!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sometimes I do become offended if I feel like someone is being "stupid" because they can't see the "obvious" truths that I'm putting out there. (And yes, I'm using quotes in order to admit my own subjectivity here.)

    Other times, I'm just, like, "So what? You don't need to accept it if you don't want to, but you can't run from the truth. You'll find out you're wrong eventually."

    For some reason, Fi seems more personal to me in terms of how it is interwoven into identity. Shouldn't it be, if it is a direct reflection of the individuals values? I have values as well, and they don't necessarily align with what I can show to be truth logically, although I believe them to be true.
    So I can sorta see Sim's comment reflected in Jennifer's response...(Also Jennifer I much appreciated the piano playing description. I am trying to understand and use some sort of Fe, and it is very clumsy and weird....thus I totally mess it up at times...beautiful analogy.)

    I think FiSi and TiSi may form a very sensitive core respective, so poking at either will generate a response....Jennifer, since your Fe is inferior, could it be encoded in Ti in someone but maybe much more instinctually than in an entp, thus just seem more obvious as a Ti principle....maybe encoded more subconsciously ?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Absolutely; Ti becomes offended when its ideas and theories are attacked in just the same way Fi becomes offended when its values and feelings are attacked, because for both these are a part of our identity.

    So when a Te user asks me to provide objective evidence for my Ti ideas, I get very irritated because he's completely missing the point.

    Think about how it makes you feel when an Fe user asks you to justify your feelings and values by showing that most people would agree. Fi doesn't care if most people would agree; that's not what it's trying to do. Fi just wants to know exactly what feels right to you; how other people would feel about it is entirely beside the point.

    Also very true. Lately I am finding that if I describe things to Fi users in terms of how they make me feel instead of in terms of how collective social standards say we should feel, I get a much better response because it allows them to empathize instead of implying oppressive control over their feelings.
    Hmmm, so a few points....the sentence in bold is a little off with respect to the word "feel"...I suspect most Fi users are greatly bothered if our actions hurt others and will seek to try and find ways not to make them "feel" bad. But intent is a huge issue. Often we hurt Fe users unintentionally...thus have to be taught what we actually did...which then allows an Fi judgment about if it can be changed or not. ENFPs are very flexible especially as we mold to the needs of those around us to a certain extent. I value their happiness more than most other things...but this is highly individualized of course....

    Hehehe, I am doing the same to Fe users but asking them how they feel and not endlessly providing solutions.... It's fun and allows me to love other much more since I understand what they need.

    Also, much thanks for these threads as you do an excellent job of summerizing a whole variety of topics and drawing them together in a precise, clean, mapped out summary. I also admire how you try to incorporate an open minded approach to the issue and seek to enhance communication. Excellent job.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yup. "This is right because it makes sense, and works the best for everyone." "Illogical" isn't the response that arises as much as it is "you're being irrational," i.e. you know what the rules are, and yet you don't seem to be breaking them for a good reason.
    This makes total sense. It is also highly rational in how it approaches a group objective. (if we could only follow Fe rulz! I cant always see them.)

  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Is there such a thing as defensive Ti?

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yup. It's violent and destructive. It reduces the other person to an object, a challenge that must be defeated by any means possible.
    When I was chatting w Eric on the shadows thread about the rare occurance of Ti rage in INTPs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It's usually attributed to Fe (which in four-process theory is treated as "the shadow"), but it's likely really demonic Fi. I know with me it is. The whole "passion" and all. One way it works, is that the shadows are what we project onto others. So we someone who appears to us as evil, or someone says something to us that seems evil (likely some moral judgment or something with at least some grain of truth we don't want to deal with) and all of this negative passion erupts, and we try to outdo them.
    Now...this is a total stretch...but could part of the gut defensive reaction you guys feel in response to Fi (after the Fe offense transfers to Ti thoughts of stupid to then to a gut feeling of "passionate" wrong) ....actually be shadow Fi?

    I dunno...I just sorta stumbled over this so please forgive eric if I have misunderstood or removed the comment from the original context....I could have totally screwed this one up....

  3. #13
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I know you are arguing with a number of NTJs pretty much all the time on this site but I think you got it a little bit wrong. (at least that is the case when it comes to my logic)


    The thing is that I am only interested in you giving me something that I can apply somewhere. If I can't apply the idea then it is quite likely that I will not interested in it. Unless the idea is interesting and we are in good terms. (friends , coworkers etc)
    However if this happens this will be exactly because of Fi.


    In my opinion your "enemy" is Ni. Since that funcion percives models , abstract concepts , outcomes etc. What means that if you give something that simply exists as an idea and there is nothing or not much you can do with it you bore an NTJ(s).
    And if that happens over and over an NTJ that has stronger Fi will become annoyed or hostile. Since the percive you are threat to community but as Ts they my not be fully aware of this.
    While the NTJ with weaker Fi will probably just walk away since drama made by personal conflict is the last thing that interests us. Especially if we are just socializing instead of arguing the point.



    In my opinion this has very little to do with values. Since Ni takes the idea and runs it "throught out everything" and if it turns out that idea has no practical implications our mind just shuts off or rejects idea and forces us to search further for solutions.

    I can understand the social implications of me supporting you or not but in the end I need something to work with and something that will give results.
    I really don't really care how much abstract it is the only thing that matters is can "this" make a differance.


    Since if it can't my mind will shut down and that has nothing to do with Fi or values. Also I really don't care if it is individual or collective value/concept. The only thing that counts is the outcome. (which does not even have to be good)


    Also as a Ni dom I function as if there is no objective truth.
    Since I personally can interpret the data in so many ways that calling one way the ultimate truth would be .... I guess the right word on english would be "aprurd". This is exactly why I suck at Fi actually. Since placing some kind of a faith (fi or Ti) on things that are pretty vague seems counter-productive. Which is because everything in the end depends on what you do "with it".


    So to make my words more concrete here is an example.

    Hammer makes a great tool but it is also pretty good weapon as well. So when you say something like "hammer and nails can do wonders" this is incomplete information towards by brain. Since it does not explain how will that exactly help us in bulding a settlement that tribe needs to survive. Also your statement could mean that someone has found a better way to do something, what then puts as at disadvantage. What could cause our death with enough time. However it could also mean that "hammer and nails can do wonders" approach is the best way to get rid of the person that is causing instability.


    Now you may ask me why did I nail a person to a piece of wood and I will say "hammer and nails can do wonders". Which means that I probably got you wrong since you almost certainly did not want that person to suffer like this.


    In other words you need to cleary say what is on your mind since the only thing that is obvious in your claim are the possibilites that are coming out of it. But I have no idea what is really on your mind if you don't define every varibale / goal. Also the fact that people in general do things this way ot that way also means little to me. Since I need conformation of the plan to be able to function. And if I can't get that I must think about the ways how to get one or how to get away from entire situation.


    Unless of course you and I are going through entire campaign togather so it is obvious where we want to go and how we should use our resources. If that is the case is pretty sure what is on your mind.


    In other words this is why we want empirical evidance. Since this is the only way we are at least somewhat sure that we are close to something that we can call objective truth or succes and that we actually understood what the other person said. Which is because we are not that much in contact with Fi and even less with Fe. So we need something to makes us sure we are on the same wavelenght as people around us. The is probably the main reason why we show affection through deeds and touch instead of being verbal about it. Which is because words/facts can be interpreted on countless ways.



    I hope this makes at least some sense to you.

  4. #14
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    i think it boils down to more of a fear that someones theories or values will be put to a collectively agreed practice/experiment impossed on everyone more than an attack on ones identity.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  5. #15
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    An attack on the premise of my construct seems to be an attack on my experience as invalid, and my analysis as incompetent. I believe this could be considered a Fe offense. That said, I don't think I have ever perceived an attack on my premise as an attack on my logic, because I do recognize that that premise is mostly intuited.
    I’ve been referring to the Te/Fi approach lately as “cavemen beating each other over the heads with their own opinions until the other side concedes from sheer exhaustion”. I was kinda surprised when I got a couple of Fi type responses saying that they found those interactions ultimately helpful. So it only just recently occurred to me that the Te/Fi vs. Ti/Fe contrast might be the reason for it, and that somehow my Fe was being as closed to new information as the Te of the ‘cavemen’ in my statement. I’m still working on figuring out how, but SW’s op sheds some light.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    So when a Te user asks me to provide objective evidence for my Ti ideas, I get very irritated because he's completely missing the point.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Ti just wants to know exactly what seems logical to me; what other people think about it is, similarly, entirely beside the point.
    This I’m not so sure I agree with. I just get frustrated because I want to know what other people really think about it themselves- and hearing the same argument over and over again leads me to believe that other people aren’t really thinking about it themselves- they just keep coming back with the same thing (basically it seems like being told over and over what we’re ‘supposed’ to think, without stopping to actually consider how much sense my argument makes).


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    1. can you tell the diff between you and your Ti logical framework? Doe sit seem to be "you" yet also be separate from you?

    3. Is there such a thing as defensive Ti?
    Kind of like what Jennifer said (if I’m understanding her correctly), I don’t really take it personally if someone doesn’t agree with me. But I get frustrated when they don’t agree because they aren’t really listening and considering it. I like to find out if I’m right or wrong according to actual logic of others. I get frustrated when there’s no room for growth, when there’s no dialogue- but I don’t take it personally.

    Maybe the aspect I have a hard time separating ‘me’ from is the need to think this way in the first place. I invariably have a Ti logical framework and don’t feel like that much is an option- but it isn’t ‘me’. Not sure if that last statement made sense.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #16
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Sim, you give me a headache, damn you!!!

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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  7. #17
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    lame question.

    can someone give me an example of well-developed Ti in action, describing their internal processing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’ve been referring to the Te/Fi approach lately as “cavemen beating each other over the heads with their own opinions until the other side concedes from sheer exhaustion”. I was kinda surprised when I got a couple of Fi type responses saying that they found those interactions ultimately helpful. So it only just recently occurred to me that the Te/Fi vs. Ti/Fe contrast might be the reason for it, and that somehow my Fe was being as closed to new information as the Te of the ‘cavemen’ in my statement. I’m still working on figuring out how, but SW’s op sheds some light.
    yeah, you'd never guess it, but TeFi types do have the capacity to be articulate and reasonable too

    honestly, though, i really don't use that "Te hammer", as it's been jokingly referred to on the ENFP issues thread, unless i perceive that someone is dismissing my opinion without thinking (feeling? lol) it through...

    Quote Originally Posted by Z
    This I’m not so sure I agree with. I just get frustrated because I want to know what other people really think about it themselves- and hearing the same argument over and over again leads me to believe that other people aren’t really thinking about it themselves- they just keep coming back with the same thing (basically it seems like being told over and over what we’re ‘supposed’ to think, without stopping to actually consider how much sense my argument makes).
    this, it's exactly this, except with Fi values. it seems like i'm being told over and over what i'm supposed to do or how to behave or how i should judge things in a certain situation, without the other person considering the why of it or stopping to evaluate it. just like Ti can't be judged on Fi grounds nor must it be backed up with Te to be logical, Fi can't be judged on Ti grounds nor must it be backed up with Fe to be worthwhile.

    so what am i left with? if i want to make my point, i have to argue the other person into a hole using Te until they will consider what i'm saying. it sucks for everyone, honestly, but sometimes i feel like my idea really is that important. fortunately, living in a house with three FeTi types and no other TeFi types, i've honed my Te quite well - even if it is still a brute force weapon, it's a nice shiny nightstick. no unwieldy, dirty club for me.

  8. #18
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmmm, so a few points....the sentence in bold is a little off with respect to the word "feel"...I suspect most Fi users are greatly bothered if our actions hurt others and will seek to try and find ways not to make them "feel" bad. But intent is a huge issue. Often we hurt Fe users unintentionally...thus have to be taught what we actually did...which then allows an Fi judgment about if it can be changed or not. ENFPs are very flexible especially as we mold to the needs of those around us to a certain extent. I value their happiness more than most other things...but this is highly individualized of course....
    No no, when I say, "How others will feel about it" I am referring to the moral values that make up your dominant outlook. The point was that Fe will draw moral values from an externalized consensus of whatever group the user feels emotionally part of, and so it doesn't really understand how you could ever derive any ethical ideas without knowing what other people think about them.

    Fi finds it silly and possibly even offensive that anyone would expect it to take other people's opinions into account when forming its conception of morality...I did not mean to imply that Fi types never care how anyone else feels about anything, just that they are ardently against drawing moral standards from anywhere but "straight from the heart!" "Do what feels right to you, not what everyone else says is right!", etc. etc.

    Has a lot to do with why Fi doms are such common literary and cinematic protagonists...people identify with their search for identity and admire their commitment to placing it above all else (something many would like to aspire to but end up getting sidetracked from.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hehehe, I am doing the same to Fe users but asking them how they feel and not endlessly providing solutions.... It's fun and allows me to love other much more since I understand what they need.
    Well if you want to adapt to them, you should figure out what social/cultural/familial group governs their values in each situation and then convince them that [whatever you're trying to convince them of] is consistent with what that group would believe is moral.

    But it also helps if they learn to tell you how they do feel instead of how they (and you, by extension, which threatens Fi's sense of freedom) should feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Also, much thanks for these threads as you do an excellent job of summerizing a whole variety of topics and drawing them together in a precise, clean, mapped out summary. I also admire how you try to incorporate an open minded approach to the issue and seek to enhance communication. Excellent job.
    No problem, now please just convince Jaguar and Tater of this. Maybe you can translate the idea into FiTe terms more effectively than I was able to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This makes total sense. It is also highly rational in how it approaches a group objective. (if we could only follow Fe rulz! I cant always see them.)
    Well, if you really started following them consistently you'd probably start to find them pretty oppressive pretty quickly. Fe blunts the highly individualized approach that Fi takes to moral identity in order to make it generalized enough and broadly applicable enough to apply to everyone in the group, which necessitates setting aside your own feelings in favor of the group...not something most Fi users are very good at doing.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No no, when I say, "How others will feel about it" I am referring to the moral values that make up your dominant outlook. The point was that Fe will draw moral values from an externalized consensus of whatever group the user feels emotionally part of, and so it doesn't really understand how you could ever derive any ethical ideas without knowing what other people think about them.
    Well, I WOULD like to understand that some day. If possible.

    It seems like Fi values just come out of nowhere... unless they're derived from the "natural moral workings of the world" just like Ti is fueled by observation and thus a sense of the natural rules of the external physical world.

    Theoretically, they should be -- otherwise function theory is not balanced.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  10. #20
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I WOULD like to understand that some day. If possible.

    It seems like Fi values just come out of nowhere... unless they're derived from the "natural moral workings of the world" just like Ti is fueled by observation and thus a sense of the natural rules of the external physical world.

    Theoretically, they should be -- otherwise function theory is not balanced.
    They are

    Fi looks for universal truths as well, and in what way those apply to you. How about this as an analogy:

    Sunlight is a universal source of energy. But, make it travel through a piece of glass, cut or shaped in a certain way and it will reveal a myriad of colours, specifically shaped according to how it was caught by the glass.

    The same is true for universal moral truths. They affect us much in the same way the sunlight strikes the glass, but it is the glass that determines what the sunlight will look like after it's passed through that. Universal moral truths get taken in and processed according to who you are as a person. How do they impact you, how do they apply to you, what is relevant in this particular truth to you as a person and how can they guide you, aid you in your unique personal path on this journey called Life. We all have the same end destination, and we are privy to mostly the same universal guides, those moral truths. It is however a very different road we all follow and those guides aren't always obvious to everyone. When you do stumble upon them..how can they, much like the sunlight, brighten your journey and aid you in understanding it, and implementing them in the best way possible given your current, unique situation and the road to follow.
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