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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    I've always regarded the differance between shadow and concious functions as being reward/motivation. The shadow functions are impersonal and don't generate much of psychological reward, even when used successfully.
    Not sure on that point. I know why you say it... but nothing unpreferred gets used unless some sort of payoff occurs. If the situation is stressful, shadow functions provide some sort of release of stress in their irrational/unconscious use, I would guess -- otherwise why would they occur?

    I've also found some value in conscious use of what would be considered my "shadow" functions. I agree that the psychological reward is so tightly constrained to not be as pleasing and instinctive as the reward from using preferred functions... but there has definitely been very quantified reward, which in turn can be psychological pleasing.

    For example, I can feel very good after making a plan, being proactive, and numbercrunching through the quantified steps I've laid out for myself (Te'ing). The thing is that, regardless of how happy I am at having finished the task and accomplished my goal, I don't feel particularly motivated to approach things that way. Regardless of reward, I still loathe having to do it, and I do it only out of necessity.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Not sure on that point. I know why you say it... but nothing unpreferred gets used unless some sort of payoff occurs. If the situation is stressful, shadow functions provide some sort of release of stress in their irrational/unconscious use, I would guess -- otherwise why would they occur?

    I've also found some value in conscious use of what would be considered my "shadow" functions. I agree that the psychological reward is so tightly constrained to not be as pleasing and instinctive as the reward from using preferred functions... but there has definitely been very quantified reward, which in turn can be psychological pleasing.

    For example, I can feel very good after making a plan, being proactive, and numbercrunching through the quantified steps I've laid out for myself (Te'ing). The thing is that, regardless of how happy I am at having finished the task and accomplished my goal, I don't feel particularly motivated to approach things that way. Regardless of reward, I still loathe having to do it, and I do it only out of necessity.
    I think the reward is way they can be used to support the concious functions, especially the prefered ones. In the example you gave, you stated that you were glad to have finished the task - to have escaped the need for an extroverted judging processes that IPs normally supress. The reward is being able to return to the primes favoured way of doing things.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  3. #23
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It's usually attributed to Fe (which in four-process theory is treated as "the shadow"), but it's likely really demonic Fi. I know with me it is. The whole "passion" and all. One way it works, is that the shadows are what we project onto others. So we someone who appears to us as evil, or someone says something to us that seems evil (likely some moral judgment or something with at least some grain of truth we don't want to deal with) and all of this negative passion erupts, and we try to outdo them.
    wow, Eric, I had not heard this perspective. It is really interesting. I can kinda see the very negative aspects of how Ti and Fe come out in Te/Fi users...but was really at a loss to understand how Fi emerges as a shadow in Ti/Fe users. I KNOW it does of course....but your thoughts are very insightful.

    I identify with the "passion" as being very much how Fi feels. It just pops up quite defensively and sorta reactively...so you have to learn to control it as an Fi user..

    I have seen INTPs almost reflexively pass moral judgments in a very reactive black and white manner...but I thought this was just inf Fe...

    When you say "out do them" what exactly do you mean? Outdo them in moral condemnation or in impassioned extroverted logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    intps have rages? where? what? how?
    I dunno...just seen it mentioned on occasion...

  4. #24
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    Dear OP

    truly experiencing a shadow perspective firsthand requires us to temporarily block out our normal perspectives, which is extremely hard to do.
    This might be extremely difficult for you to do.
    Others can do it with ease.
    Still others, are not even aware that they do it with ease.

  5. #25
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Not sure on that point. I know why you say it... but nothing unpreferred gets used unless some sort of payoff occurs. If the situation is stressful, shadow functions provide some sort of release of stress in their irrational/unconscious use, I would guess -- otherwise why would they occur?
    In ENFPs, these negative shadow erruptions occur due to Fi pain typically. Fi appears to be self-defining, thus if we keep getting poked we will "roll" our ego away from that pain, substitute various "complexes" of mixed up shaodw functions and identify a way to drive the other person away from us. To stop the attack. The reward is the pain stopping.

    But is exhausting to do so...productive shadow use appears doable and even energizing, but it can be hard to "find" the shadows on command...This is baby Ni and baby Fe for me..

  6. #26
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    it is quite unusual because truly experiencing a shadow perspective firsthand requires us to temporarily block out our normal perspectives, which is extremely hard to do
    It took an exceedingly stressful event for mine to emerge.

    I think the problem here is that since we all have so little direct experience with the shadow functions, it's almost impossible to accurately identify them or to know when we are really experiencing their influence firsthand.
    I didn't realize what was happening to me. I kept using phrases like, "I'm not myself. I don't feel right...I feel lost." and "I want to go home." I really thought I had lost my mind. I became someone else entirely and I hated that person. All I wanted is for her to go away and be myself again. I had no earthly idea of why I felt that way, where it originated from, or why I was even having these kinds of thoughts.

    In short, shadows are simply not compatible with your preferred perspective, and that's why your consciousness suppresses them. You don't use them routinely and they are not equal in strength or proficiency to any of your four preferred attitudes.
    Yes--I kept saying "I don't know how to deal with this" and I meant it literally. I kept trying to analyze the situation and make sense of it and it just wouldn't yield to analysis because it was all about emotion. I got stuck into a loop and it collapsed.

    We cannot access them without temporarily blocking out the influence of our primary functions, which is incredibly difficult to do, and does not happen very often.
    Thank the PTB for that! It was one of the frightening things that has every happened to me. Like being possessed. I'm still cleaning up the mess from it.

    I'd like to know what can be done to prevent this occurrence in case another traumatic event. What can one do? Or is this something that is just to be endured?

    (I hope this is on topic...I haven't had time to study this in depth).

  7. #27
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    wow, Eric, I had not heard this perspective. It is really interesting. I can kinda see the very negative aspects of how Ti and Fe come out in Te/Fi users...but was really at a loss to understand how Fi emerges as a shadow in Ti/Fe users. I KNOW it does of course....but your thoughts are very insightful.
    Thanks!
    I identify with the "passion" as being very much how Fi feels. It just pops up quite defensively and sorta reactively...so you have to learn to control it as an Fi user..

    I have seen INTPs almost reflexively pass moral judgments in a very reactive black and white manner...but I thought this was just inf Fe...

    When you say "out do them" what exactly do you mean? Outdo them in moral condemnation or in impassioned extroverted logic?
    With me, it's usually trying to knock the other person down off of their moral platform (You should see the debate I'm having right now with some conservatives over proving their political ideology where liberal views are "just wrong" with no proof of their rightness of their views needed. These sorts of opponents seem to be TJ's manifesting an immature Fi).
    I know I must be projecting something, and now that I am coming to understand this aspect of shadow dynamics, I'm trying to learn why and what I can do about that.
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  8. #28
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    I was thinking about these functions and I came up with an idea. I don't know if it's already been thought up yet, I haven't searched for information yet, but it goes as follows:

    I am an INTP as such my functions are Ti Ne Si Fe. My 'shadow' functions are Te Ni Se Fi. These are functions that are suppose to come about due to stress. Stress requires us to think more and use functions in conjunction with each other. So I thought they manifest through combination of functions that we use regularly. For example Te would be a manifestation of Ti and Fe. Ti is much higher up so the T remains, but the extraverted direction of the Fe influences the first function into the outer world creating Te. It is a function that we can use, but not well because the orientation of Fe requires us to focus our thoughts outward. Under stress it becomes a much harder function to use because Fe is already inferior in itself.

    Does this sound plausible?

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